Comments on: Living up to our privileges

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:04:31 +0000

Thank you for the thoughtful response, Caitlin. I am always fascinated by other sects’ explication of the creation story. I do like (though of course it’s not mine to like or dislike doctrine) the idea we have in Mormonism that Eve is to be absolutely commended and revered for having the wisdom and courage to choose to bring life (and death) into the world. We say it was a “transgression” to eat of the fruit, but there is no sense of a sexual sin having been committed, and that the travail in childbirth was more a natural consequence than a punishment imposed. I don’t know.

I don’t know much about anything.

But I agree that almost always in the scriptures (especially, perhaps ironically? in our Book of Mormon, and in the New Testament more than the Old Testament) that women are not not asked to be less.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:59:45 +0000

Thanks, Rixa. I don’t know if it’s ironic or not that most of the women I know who do have doubts are those with superb husbands — those, like myself — who are the opposite of repressed or unequal in their personal lives. That has to be significant of something, doesn’t it?

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:45 +0000

I’m glad we talked on the phone before I read this comment, because otherwise it would’ve been even more offensive. But even now … that you can dismiss me as a little child have a big tantrum, I think it would be better if you stopped reading my blog. Life isn’t fair, you’re absolutely right, and my life is blessed beyond measure in my circumstances and especially in my incredible partnership with my husband. It is not, however, improved by condescending mansplaining (look it up) like this.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:50:30 +0000

Thanks for the links, Eric, I will listen to those. I remember working on the reference desk on the old 4th floor of the HBLL and watching Brother Nibley walk past on his way to the rare books.

By: Brad

Brad — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 03:03:53 +0000

One of my earliest memories is of my dad trying to explain to my older sister that life isn’t always fair. She was throwing a big tantrum. I didn’t understand what was going on then, and I’m not sure I understand what is going on here.
Life is not fair. The gospel is not fair. Jesus is not fair, and neither is Heavenly Father. The Atonement is not fair: if I repent of my sins, I can (unfairly) be forgiven of many more sins than my more righteous sister, who has less need of a spiritual physician.
I don’t know of any teaching in the gospel regarding fairness, especially among men and women. In “The Family: A Proclimation to the World,” the First Presidency encourages men and women to work as “equal partners.” Did you grow up in a home with unequal partners? Does your family now have unequal partners? From your posts in general, I get the impression that you and your husband have an excellent partnership.
Do you have a beef with the unfairness of church roles (or life in general) or is your beef with people who try to establish equality between being a mother and holding the priesthood? If the latter, is this a doctrinal concept taught over the pulpit (i.e. General Conference style), or something retold in Sunday School along with Cain being Bigfoot or youth being former generals who will one day hush heaven?
It’s one thing to criticize promoters of urban legends, but it’s another to criticize the church. There’s a difference between questioning doctrine and criticizing the brethren (perhaps an awkward [albeit accurate] metonym for church leadership in this context). There’s a difference between privately questioning church practices versus publicly criticizing the Relief Society President or the Prophet. Personally, I was appalled a few years ago when one of my favorite authors publicly criticized the brethren for placing basket ball courts in churches. To be genuine, I very much agreed with his argument, but I would never have expressed those thoughts publicly, and especially not in such a negative tone.
Men and women are not the same. And frankly, maybe the are not even equal, at least not in a quid-pro-quo sort of way. At my work I currently take care of soldiers wounded in the Afghanistan war. I’ve treated hundreds of soldiers. At most, 2 of them were women. How is that fair? Or equal? I don’t know, but I do feel that it is appropriate. I believe these fine soldiers would overwhelmingly agree with me–none of them would every complain that there aren’t enough women pulling their weight in combat missions.
Lastly, are you expressing your frustration with the church or your frustration with God? Is there a difference? Is your attitude one of humbly seeking to understand, or an attitude of demanding that someone explain the Lord’s workings to you in a way that you approve of?

By: Eric

Eric — Tue, 23 Oct 2012 22:55:26 +0000

I’ve found your posts interesting and I appreciate the thoughts and perspectives they provoke within me. I listened to the following Nibley talk this AM – “Patriarchy and Matriarchy” and found it fascinating in relation to your shared experience in this post. Caitlin’s comment is especially interesting in relation to topics addressed in the recording:

http://www.divshare.com/download/14415731-73b

(I found the link from this website so you can get part two of the audo, too: http://www.eveoutofthegarden.com/p/hugh-nibley-mp3.html )

By: Caitlin

Caitlin — Tue, 23 Oct 2012 01:40:09 +0000

I love your blog because I like the way you think. Just one idea I would like to offer into the conversation:

In the second creation story, God creates Eve out of Adam’s rib, this we all know. But sometimes it will do us good to stop and think about the symbolism of the rib. If God had made woman out of Adam’s hands, it would seem to indicate that women were made to do work for men. If God had made Eve out of Adam’s back, perhaps women were made to carry the burdens of men. If Eve were made from Adam’s heart, perhaps she was intended to be the spiritual superior of Adam, to lead him in matters of the heart/spirit.

Instead, Eve was fashioned out of Adam’s rib. A rib protects vital organs. It comes from the exact middle of the body. To be joined at the rib means to be face to face or side by side. To be fashioned out of the rib seems to indicate that Eve was made in genuine equality with Adam.

It was only after the original sin (is this something you talk about in Mormonism?) that women became oppressed by their childbearing responsibility. We should also remember that sin requires men to give up their freedom to provide for their family. Still very equal in nature. If women are asked to be less than men in your church, (as they sometimes are in mine) I don’t find any evidence for such treatment in the creation stories.

By: Rixa

Rixa — Tue, 23 Oct 2012 00:37:09 +0000

Dim lightbulb indeed! So why do the dim lightbulbs get to talk and covenant directly with God, while the bright ones sit on the sidelines?

I’ve been having a lot of doubts myself. I have had many undeniable spiritual experiences over the years. But some days I just don’t know if I can handle the church. I’m fine with Jesus and the atonement and even the B of M. It’s just most of the other Mormon stuff that often drives me batty! I feel that we as a church are straying too far from the basics of the gospel (faith, repentance, baptism, love one another, do good and follow Jesus’ example) and have become overly Pharisaical or Mosaic in our numerous beliefs & practices. Even the big things like Family or Temple (which have a lot of good in them) have overtaken the basics. Anyway, I am not as coherent as I’d like in this comment…but I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.

I remember my grandpa years back saying that men are going to have a major shock (and repentance/learning process) in the afterlife when they realize how they have systematically oppressed or mistreated women. Go grandpa!

By: Bobi Jensen

Bobi Jensen — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:11:00 +0000

awesome, as always