*This post is not about whether you breast or bottle feed; as long as you make a thoughtful and informed decision, who cares? — unless your thoughts or information are wrong, of course, but really — This is about cultural norms of modesty(?), and why in the heck is Utah so weird?
My mom is a sort of den mother for a mommy group over at the BYU, because my dad is on the High Council (church thing that sounds more highfalutin’ than it is) over at the BYU, and because my mom has lots of mother/homemaking-type skills to share. (And now she’s read the Aeneid, too, which I never finished (or possibly even started) when I took History of Civilization in college, so, good job, Mom!)
We were talking about breastfeeding on Sunday night, which we talk about an awful lot for people who are not currently breastfeeding, and she said that the women in her mommy group do not breastfeed in front of each other, even in each other’s homes. One woman will say to the other woman (no men present), “The baby’s hungry, I better get home to feed him.” Not even with a hooter hider or a blanket.
This confounds me.
When we were in Cairo, it was pointed out to us by a native-type lady that there was a strange phenomenon occurring, where the older women, the professional women, the secretaries and workers and mature ladies in public wore no headcovering, or a very simple, not-concealing, high-fashion material-type scarf headcovering, and that it was the younger generation of women who were, some of them, adopting plain, concealing hijabs, and in some cases, burqas (although I think they had a different name for them in Cairo, and unlike in Saudi Arabia they aren’t blue, but black, which is even hotter).
This was confounding, even to the native-type lady.
In Cairo, there are womens-only subway cars, and at first this sounds sexist and ghetto-izing, but the women (including me) like it. The women’s cars always smelled better, for one thing. And in those women’s cars, among the women in burqas, the women in hijabs, the women in clothes much modester than most Westerners would ever wear, they breastfeed. Openly. In front of complete strangers!
Is this just a Utah/Mormon thing/why is it/what the tarnation is going on?
And . . . will I be completely ostracized in September? I’m tempted to vow that if I get so much as one comment, I’m moving back to the Middle East, where people understand women!
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So, I have both sides of this story. With the Nub we had a hard time getting the whole thing put together, it was quite the production and at times felt like a three ring circus. I mean I had to cross hold that kid until he was almost 6 mo. old. It was just easier to do it in the comforts of my own home rather than try to put that all together.
With my next I plan on being a little less modest about it, especially in front of other women so pray for me that whoever he/she is will be a much better and more capable nurser. Because seriously, it’s supposed to be easy and natural. Which it was not on any level with the Nub, just so we’re clear.
Nurse away!
Sue Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
I think it just depends on the people. I could never quite master the art of breastfeeding without completely putting on a show – I’m very well endowed and uncoordinated and I just have never felt comfortable with breastfeeding in public as a result. But at book club three of my friends breastfeed with not so much as a blanket and we’re all fine with it. I’M fine with it. I’m just not fine with introducing everyone to my breasticles.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
But I WANT to see your breasts, Sue.
(just kidding). (really).
I am being selfish here. I really don’t care what other people do. But seriously, if one person gives me grief come September, HEADS WILL ROLL.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Kalli — Women who persevere with difficult breastfeeding (and those who make the hard decision that it’s just not right for their families) get my utmost admiration, seriously.
It’s easy for me to talk about the much-more-unimportant issues of where and how, etc, bec. breastfeeding has always been (and better continue to be, dang it) super-easy, convenient, etc. (Except for the first couple of weeks with my first, when I thought both she and I would die.)
i’ve had a different experience. with both of my kids i felt like i needed to cover up ALL THE TIME. church….. i went to the “mother’s lounge” and so did everyone else. i was a single mom when #2 was born (jason was gone at training for 8 months) and i still felt totally embarassed to nurse in sacrament. i would drag my other one out with me and there we would sit. NOW- EVERYONE in my ward nurses right where they are sitting…. and i probably will if i ever have another one.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
It’s just so weird to me. It never even occurred to me to think about covering up or leaving or being self-conscious or anything — UNTIL I MOVED BACK TO UTAH. Now it seems like this whole big statement thing. (which it isn’t. really. I promise. {nurse-in}
Maybe I can just move north . . .
I didn’t nurse and am not currently nursing (and Oy, I’m not explaining the whys here) BUT, I totally support women nursing publicly. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable and I would be more offended if a woman, especially a friend, felt the need to leave my company in order to nurse. It would make me feel like they weren’t truly comfortable around me.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
I know I shouldn’t (hypothetically) take it personally, but yeah, if someone (a friend) felt they couldn’t feed in front of me, in a private place, I’d feel they weren’t comfortable around me.
I completely appreciate that because I feel like I deserved a gold medal for nursing that dang kid a full year! Breastfeeding was truly one of the most difficult things I’ve had to do ever. The only time it was really ever enjoyable for me was when I was home alone, in the mornings or right before bed and it was just us rocking and nursing. Other than that like I said, it was a zoo.
Maybe that’s more where the public vs. private preference thing comes into play, but then again, like you I know a good majority of those who nurse don’t have it as crazy as Sue and I (though I cannot claim spectacular boobage like her. I think especially with the whole La Leche movement and trend toward “Natural Parenting” (that term makes me gag) more people are catching on and choosing to view the act of nursing as a more public and acceptable act.
I will say this, if you’re going to do it sans blanket or covering, I appreciate discreteness and skill, there are some who are masters at this. There’s nothing like an errant flash of areola to make you feel awkward in conversation!
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Breastfeeding is actually the only aspect of “natural parenting” (as far as I understand it) that I practice myself, so it’s probably odd that I feel so strongly about it.
It is odd, though, isn’t it, that 3rd world countries like Egypt and many in South America accept breastfeeding as natural and public, acceptable, and yet in the (educated/progressive/etc) U.S. it’s taken a “movement” to counteract . . . maybe it’s just vestiges of puritanicalism (and therefore maybe not odd at all)?
And I don’t know. You might just have to deal with some inadvertent flashing, and LIKE IT. (kidding, again. I think.)
Azucar Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 12:50 am
It’s not vestiges of Puritanicalism AT ALL. It was the rise of the breast as sexual objects in Post-WWII America, the heavy hand of formula/milk companies, and the belief that science could create something better than women could. We went from nursing every where at any time, like the rest of the freaking universe, to the late 40s and early 50s where nursing was backwards, disgusting, low-class, and Not Done.
It’s pathetic that it’s taken a movement to get us back to normal. We’re not even there yet. My father, who is older, says that women here in Utah nursed everywhere uncovered: on public transportation, in sacrament meeting, at general conference, just anywhere, because it was NORMAL.
It *is* just Utah. We have a weird modesty vs. function issue regarding our breasts. In fact, a huge study was done about 5 years ago to ascertain why our breastfeeding initiation rates were so high, but our continuation rates are dismal. The number one reason women in Utah quit? Nursing in Public.
I personally nurse everywhere and have never had so much as a dirty look(that I’ve ever noticed). I think a big part of it is your own comfort. I never felt like I shouldn’t be doing what I was doing and I never made a big deal about it…it’s just something I do, it’s part of our day. Occasionally I will get a look of curiosity because I am obviously pregnant and nursing a toddler
but never a look of disgust.
Of course, I don’t use a blanket (my kids were always afraid they would smother under there) and if I didn’t use that, I sure wasn’t going to use a hooter hider or any other such accoutrement. Maybe that’s part of it. Many people don’t even realize that I’m doing it. Which, although makes me proud that I’m so stealthy
, also makes me kind of sad that it isn’t just accepted as a normal part of parenting. Sometimes I wish (very quietly) that everyone could see and know so that the one mom who felt so bad about nursing, could see that it really is okay to feed her baby wherever she happens to be. It might give her the confidence she needs to try again next time.
When people talk about flashing while nursing, I’ve also been known to say that if someone looks closely enough at my breast during latching to see my anatomy, then go for it. I can’t see how that could possibly be anything but embarrassing for the watcher.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
This is the only comment I’ve ever gotten abt nursing in public: A friend told me after sacrament mtg once that her husband noticed that I was leaking, so I might want to do something abt that. I said, tell your husband to quit looking at my boobs.
I want to reassure people that I am stealthy/discreet too, but then I wonder why I am being so apologetic.
personally i don’t see it as a utah/mormon thing because although i grew up elsewhere, i had all my babies here and, much like your comments reflect, my experience has been that some are cool w/ nursing in public and some are not. it seems way more specific to the person than to the location/religion.
while i, personally, am not comfortable breastfeeding in the chapel during sacrament meeting (even covered up), i’ve pretty much breastfed just about anywhere else–football games, basketball games, friends houses, even at the mall. and no one ever said a word or threw me out or anything else for that matter. i’ve also seen all sorts of women friends nurse–some more discreetly than others–and no skin off my nose. or anyone else’s for that matter.
and i live deep in the heart of p-town, most conservative place on earth.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
It seems Utah me, because in our New York, Cairo, and Florida branches/wards (don’t remember in Japan, weren’t there very long), breastfeeding seemed much more natural and public. I breastfed in those chapels probably . . . let’s see, I could count it up, would be almost 150 times. It’s usually how I kept my babies quiet during that meeting.
Jane Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
Oh, and I wanted to point out that technically (politically) the most conservative place on earth (in the U.S.) is Madison county, Idaho. (Where Rexburg is, not surprisingly).
Utah is just.plain.weird. But come to think of it, I have seen some Mormon women cover up *in the mother’s lounges* outside of Utah, so I guess I’ll have to retract my first sentence!
I SO want to see some heads roll.
I nursed 7 babies in Utah and one in AZ with nary a problem.
I’ve breastfed in UT, MO, PA, & NC. Only place I didn’t do it publicly was Sacrament meeting (and possibly sunday school … and RS if the meeting was extra boring that day). Never thought it was an issue, never had it be an issue. I would cover up (with a blanket)in front of my father-in-law and a brother-in-laws because I knew it made them more comfortable. They were never rude about it, and I never thought it was an issue then, either.
Maybe times have changed it Utah since I nursed there a decade ago? I’ve never noticed women leave a room full of other women to nurse, either. Of course I have no problem completely undressing in front of other women. And I had my father present for all my births, watching the child come out. So obviosuly my family doesn’t come with a lot of modesty hang ups.
I think several comments about the logistical difficulty of breastfeeding are true. For me breastfeeding required both hands (I am a DD cup size). So every time I sat down to feed I had to be thoroughly prepared (a drink, the phone, the remote, whatever else I needed) because I was going to be tied up. To breastfeed and have full hands and also try to keep a blanket over me was just too hard. I would rather be home in private where I did not have to worry about it.
BTW, my husband still laments an experience on his mission in Argentina where a bishop’s wife, sitting on the stand, breastfed during a meeting with no covering. He says it was awful to have to sit there and watch her. Maybe a lot of Utah breastfeeding behavior is due to male reactions?
Sue Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Becky – First paragraph – EXACTLY. Definitely a two hand job to keep baby from suffocating.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:37 am
I totally get the logistical thing. And I admit, one of my trepidations this time around is that I am much fatter. The rolls on my sides will show, and my breasts are actually a DD now too (according to the Victoria’s Secret lady), whereas before I was a C.
So will I have a harder time? Before, I have been able to make dinner while breastfeeding, even to change a diaper while breastfeeding (though I didn’t make this a habit, I was just in a big hurry once, and found it was possible).
My husband went to Venezuela, and I think it helped him a lot in being comfortable w/ breastfeeding (though maybe he didn’t think so at the time. While I sympathize w/ your husband’s lament bec. of culture shock, couldn’t he avert his eyes? She wasn’t doing anything wrong (in her culture).
I wonder if the issues with logistics would lessen if we actually saw breastfeeding more often. A year ago on my blog I mentioned a lady in my ward who apologized to me for watching me latch my daughter on- but after watching me she gained the courage to call a lactation consultant. She said she was going to give up breastfeeding that day until she saw me.
As for men’s attitudes, I’ve had one man in my ward tell me that he’s actually left certain Internet sites because he remembered me breastfeeding openly and knew that porn was not what breasts are for.
Yeah, I know people who are uncomfortable with me breastfeeding openly at church, but those two stories keep me going. It helps both men and women.
Anyway- your post was on things that confound you about breastfeeding:
What confounds me is when women from church are in MY house ask if they can breastfeed. Um… *head desk*
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:38 am
I love both those stories.
And yes . . . that is quite mind-boggling.
Heather Reply:
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:22 pm
I love the stories too. I’ll have to remember them this summer/fall as well.
As for asking if it’s okay, I always ask. Not because I’m embarrassed, but because I never know if the host/hostess is going to be. Even so, nobody is going to say no (if they did? no friend of mine!), but at least then they can’t feel like I forced it on them. You know?
And we’d BETTER start nursing more at church or our poor missionaries are going to get their culturally unaware butts kicked.
I’ll nurse anywhere. I hate Hooter Hiders, they makes it so that women feel like they HAVE to cover up instead of just to feel comfortable. You won’t catch me dead wearing those tents. I’ll give you a pep talk if I see you wearing one (You can do it! You don’t need it!)
And yes, Jane, I hope you let the heads roll.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:39 am
I’ve never used a blanket (that I can remember). I just get too hot, and don’t see a need for it. I probably would in front of the Prophet, but hey, what are the chances?
I think more women should nurse in public. My mom told me once I shouldn’t nurse in sacrament meeting and it totally ticked me off. Her reasoning was that it makes some men uncomfortable and it’s not like they should just get up and leave sacrament meeting. I was like, “Whatever. Doesn’t Heavenly Father want us to nurse? Isn’t that why we’re given breasts? What better place to show it than church?” There was more to the conversation- but my memory is fuzzy due to severe sleep-deprivation. I used to go to the mother’s lounge with my first. And I used to cover up in there. The only reason I went there with my others was to nap while I nursed. lol But I never covered up anymore unless I was cold. I’m pretty stealthy even with more-than-adequate-sized baby-feeders. It takes a little practice though. My best accomplishment was nursing while walking and shopping at Wal-Mart in Utah. I felt like the nobody could change my mind. I DARE you to say something to me! I’m ready to E.D.U.C.A.T.E. you. I’m sure I blogged about it before, but I educated (read: LECTURED) the NICU doctor after my third was born about breastfeeding. I got a round of applause from the eavesdropping nurses too after he left. And if I was ever around someone who was given a dirty look or comment because she was nursing, heads would definitely roll.
Be proud. Whip em out. Feed that baby. Set an example for your daughters.
You’re awesome.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:42 am
Thanks Nikki. I agree on the part about Heavenly Father, etc. If being a mother is the central part of our existence, our holiest, noblest calling, then breastfeeding better dang well be welcomed at church.
i know i asked you to delete my previous comment, but personally i see a blog post with comments open as an invitation to discuss, even if one has a different opinion or experience than the post author or other commenters.
1. i am a huge advocate for breastfeeding. and for breastfeeding in public.
2. i am also an advocate of choice.
3. i find it a little disingenuous to NOT cover up if one can or wants to just to make a statement or educate someone else’s boys. as the mom of two missionary age boys, i’m pretty sure my choices to breastfeed publicly would have already taken care of that. as a returned missionary, i’m also pretty sure that just because some people in other cultures or countries open their front doors buck naked doesn’t mean we should all run around buck naked just to prevent missionaries from culture shock either.
4. i also find it a little disingenuous to expect the right to breastfeed in public and to not cover up but not respect the choices of women who, for whatever reason, don’t feel comfortable breastfeeding everywhere or who choose to cover up. or even those who, for whatever reason, prefer to go to the mothers’ lounge when available.
5. as i stated before, the experience of the mommy group you reference in your post has not at all been what i have experienced here. i’ve seen breastfeeding in sacrament meeting, at ball games, in book club and at restaurants. no big deal. none of my friends who have been guests in my home have ever asked to be excused or left in order to breastfeed, nor have i ever gone home to nurse a baby unless the baby was at home and i was away.
i recognize there are ignorant people who say and do ignorant things. i’m pretty sure you can find them anywhere. i’m just grateful i never had to deal with any. i can’t speak for what happens in cairo or to what you will find where you live, but that doesn’t make my experience living where i live any less valid. as for the cultural trend to which azucar refers, i’ve heard that explanation as well, but that certainly isn’t limited to utah either.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:49 am
4. Maybe I am completely wrong on this, but I feel like there is a difference between an individual’s comfort level with breastfeeding and the cultural norms that influence how we feel about it (as the breastfeeder or the breastfeeding-observer). And I object both to cultural norms that are detrimental to the continuance of breastfeeding (see the research Karin cites) and the acceptance of breastfeeding, and to the very real possibility that non-common-sensical (perhaps religion/location influenced) cultural norms unduly influence individual comfort level. What I do not object to is a woman breastfeeding however is most comfortable to her.
But if she only feels comfortable doing it in private BECAUSE of cultural norms, then I object to that.
(And I’m sorry if I was insensitive or steamroller-ish in my response to your comments. Of course your experience of the world is just as or more valid than mine; it was probably dumb of me to just reiterate what I had already said in my post was my point of view.)
dalene Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
no worries. i appreciate that you brought up the difference between a particular individual’s personal comfort level and/or choices and the cultural norms that may or may not influence someone’s personal comfort level and/or choices. i too would object to someone feeling pressured to exclude themselves socially simply because of imposed cultural norms that are beyond normal.
I’ve nursed five babies until they were 15-18 months old (currently nursing an 11 mo. old) and I just barely bought a “hooter hider” that I haven’t been able to figure out how to use. I nurse whenever and wherever (the only people who have ever commented were my annoying brothers whose wives discreetly go to another room to nurse) except for in Sacrament Meeting. I don’t know why. I see other women nursing in Sacrament Meeting in my ward now and I think it is so cool. Maybe I just want to go in the nursing lounge for a little while and leave my husband with the other four kids.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Yes, I am all for the quiet mommy-baby time while dad has to wrangle the older ones!!
Wow, that’s really weird. If I am just with women, I have no problem whippin’ it out. I will still use a blanket or a cover, if my baby will let me. I do know, however, that it makes the men in my life uncomfortable. So for that reason I really do strive to keep it covered around them.
I was down at a conference in St. George a couple weekends ago and there was a girl there with a young baby. He got fussy, so she pulled out a blanket and was trying to feed him. Well, he was having none of that, he wanted that blanket off! So she took it off and used her shirt to keep it fairly modest. I got an accidental peek, but I was thinking YOU GO GIRL! Although I did notice some looks in her direction. Thankfully, she seemed to busy to notice them. I hope.
Please don’t leave.
With my first child, I had problems with sore nipples, and until someone from LaLeche told me to use diaper rash ointment to heal them, I hid when I nursed her, because I was crying from the pain. Once we got through that, I nursed her almost everywhere. I bought a package of old-fashioned cloth diapers and carried a couple with me to use as coverups, and as burp rags for my clothes when I burped her. She was a perfect little lady who nursed silently, and almost noone even noticed.
Then there was baby number 2. My “munchmouth” was so eager to nurse, she sucked as hard and fast as she could, and seemed like she was trying to drown herself. She then choked and snorted like a little piglet, and kicked and thrashed around. She made it almost impossible to nurse her discreetly, so I was a lot more likely to look for a more private place to nurse if we were in mixed company. I often went and sat in the car if there was no lounge or other appropriate room available. Different strokes for different kids!
I am so with Utah Mom. I love the mothers’ room because it’s a break. And it’s like a fun little club – see your friends with similarly-aged babies. However! I wasn’t covering up but seeing others cover up in there made me think – yikes, maybe I’m not supposed to be so free & open in here. But whatever. Most of the greater Raleigh area has seen my boobs by now.
I have to admit that I’m still not sure what’s most comfortable for me when I breastfeed and whether my motivations are rational or merely cultural. I fed my baby in public, but usually with a blanket covering us up. On a trip to New York, I’d had enough of the hot blanket and merely popped my baby in his baby carrier (on the front of me, facing me), lifted my shirt, and let him eat as I did some sight seeing and shopping. I actually felt less self conscious without the blanket than with. With this next baby, I’m not sure what will work best. Funny that you should mention Venezuela, because I feel like my Venezuelan cultural norms are much, much more strict/Victorian. Growing up, I rarely saw anyone breastfeeding in public, and when I did, my friends and family grew very uncomfortable. The only people I saw breastfeed in public were indigenous women in and around Maracaibo (is that where Tom was?). I was always taught by my family that breastfeeding in public was something that “only the Indians” do, and that it was distasteful. I suppose wherever there is a culture that is comfortable with breastfeeding, there will be a geographically coinciding culture that is not.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
So interesting. Yes, Tom was in Maracaibo (which I would not know how to spell if you hadn’t asked). They taught many women who breastfed; of course, that was in their own homes, so not really public, but on the other hand, in front of two male strangers.
And I, too, nursed Avery in the baby bjorn, while walking down Broadway; I’m sure most people had no idea.
I don’t know why exactly but reading this post made me recall the time I was eating dinner at your parent’s house (which I did frequently back in ” the day”) and you walking into the kitchen with your husband and screaming “I’m ovulating!” I think this was a couple of years after your first was born and you were trying again. Ovulating is related to breastfeeding, right?
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Paige, I am pretty sure I have never screamed “I’m ovulating.” (unless I did, that one time ;p)
I didn’t quite make the connection between breastfeeding and burquas. Maybe my brain just isn’t working well today. But I remember seeing in the news recently that someone is starting a women’s only taxi service in Mexico City. Only women driving, only women passengers. Sounds great to me. Except that their making the taxis pink and provide make-up. Why do they have to make everything pink for women? Why do we have to have make-up thrown at us all the time? Let’s sell tools to women, alright, better make sure they’re pink! God knows women will only use pink tools. We need to market this aspirin to women, so let’s make it pink! Here are some women, so let’s make sure they have make-up nearby. Pink make-up!
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Two things to the breastfeeding/burqa thing (and maybe both are a stretch). The first is that in both cases the younger women (who one might expect to be more feminist/less traditional/etc) are the ones being more circumspect/more “conservative”.
Second, that even in a culture where women take modesty VERY seriously, they still breastfeed openly in front of other women.
Your pink make-up rant made me laugh (hard). Thank you.
New commenter here. I’ll just jump right in.
1. Childbirth is messy, and immodest. I mean, when you’re on the table pushing out your beloved little one, do you ask the nurses/midwives/people helping out to please keep your private parts draped to prevent anyone from accidentally getting an eyeful? And when they hand you that baby for the first time, and he tries to nurse while still smelling like the womb, do you banish you mother and husband all the support staff from the room? No way! If you haven’t lost all sense of modesty by the time your first baby is born, you are made of different stuff than me. So why in heavens name would you have to cover up in a room full of women, especially a room full of women in the same stage of life as you? (Other than the completely valid claims of logistical breastfeeding difficulties . . . try breastfeeding two at once. Not something I was exactly willing to do out in public. Kind of looked like a circus sideshow.)
This brings me to . . .
2. No one can possibly fault you for wanting to leave a gathering when you’re doing it in the interests of your child. Don’t want to be there anymore? “Oh, it’s time to go home and nurse!” ranks right up there with “I can’t drive at night” as an excuse that no one will contest.
3. Whether we like it or not, breasts are sexual objects to most men. If faced with a bare one, most of them will look. Sad but true. They might — might — immediately look away. Good for them if they do. But I’m not about to even make it a possibility. I nurse at church out of the way of men and, more importantly, teenage boys. I nurse in public places only if I’m completely covered up and there’s minimal danger of an accidental nipple slip. I also choose my locations carefully — like, an out-of-the way seating area or secluded nook. This weekend, I nursed on a bench in the back of the darkened whale shark tank room at the Georgia Aquarium in Atlanta. I didn’t even get a second look — from anyone. And if I had, I would have just smiled sweetly and told them to mind their own business because in the south, no one can take offense if you start the sentence with “Honey”.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
My favorite excuse for things I don’t want to do is, “Tom won’t let me,” because, if you know me at all, this is never an issue. (Well, I’m sure if I wanted to go REALLY crazy, it would be, but so far he let’s me do what I want ;p).
InkMom: I agree that breasts are sexual objects to most men. In fact, they’re likely sexual objects to most women. I wonder, though, if they are sexual objects because we don’t see them being used in their primary function enough. Are breasts sexual objects to the Yanomami of northern Brazil, whose women don’t wear tops? Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps if more women breastfed openly and in full view of men, they’d abandon their obsession with breasts as sexual objects.
But maybe that’s just wishful thinking. I’ve always been of the opinion that if we all walked around naked, we’d stop staring at each other after a while because it would be normal. I sometimes think the Mormon sense of modesty merely ads fuel to the sexualization of the body and gives young teenagers more to fantasize about. Anecdotal evidence of this notion: when I asked an Arab man, in Jordan, why he preferred women who covered their faces to women who merely covered their heads, he responded that it meant there was more of a mystery to discover. When I asked some women in Jordan why some women cover up their faces, they responded that it suggested that they were very beautiful under their covering. I doubt these are the doctrinally-correct answers, according to Islam, but that might be the perceived effect.
InkMom Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
I agree . . . but I’m not about to be the one who starts the trend! I still feel keenly the need to protect myself from the leers of men not sensitive to the cultural normality that breastfeeding should have. Knowing that there are some (maybe even many) who will objectify, I do not wish to be objectified.
I wonder if we’ll be clothed in the celestial kingdom? Probably won’t be breastfeeding there, though.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Now THAT is an interesting question. But if we are only parents to spirit children, I’d guess not. (too bad).
I am actually strongly of the opinion that open breastfeeding is the answer to male (and female) sexualization of the breast. Let them see what breasts are for, and they will see what breasts are for.
And I am convicted enough of that that I would start the trend (if it had not already been ably begun).
I find modesty fascinating, especially having gone from living in a place where I was the least modest (Cairo, except for the ugly tourists, of course), to being the most modest (Florida, where everyone wears beachwear everywhere). In Victorian times ankles were the height of eroticism, so should we wear legwarmers? Sexuality is largely a cultural construct, and I think the sexualization of the breasts is one of the more unfortunate (and indefensible) aspects of our Western culture.
(But please don’t be offended. I know I got a bit (okay ENORMOUSLY) soap-boxy there. I do appreciate your comments and point of view, but I feel quite strongly.)
InkMom Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
No offense taken. I wish I were more brave, but, at least about this, I’m not. I speak from an extremely busty body — my breasts have been objectified from the time I sprouted them, and it’s . . . uncomfortable for that to be my most memorable trait. Sadly, for some, it is. (Wow, are they ever missing out!)
But I need some clarification from you. And I will try not to cross a content line here. Let me say first that I think you’re right on the money about sexuality being a cultural construct. But don’t you think that breasts would be sexualized by . . . well, anyone engaging in the act, whether influenced by cultural mores or not? Yes, breasts are for breastfeeding, but you cannot take the sexual pleasure element out of the equation. Although, I think of that scene in “The Age of Innocence” in which Daniel Day Lewis removes Michelle Pfeiffer’s glove . . . I don’t know. I’ll be thinking about this for days.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
That is a good question. I think the pleasure for the female is maybe more innate than for the male, because she is actually having nerve endings stimulated, where for men, I think it honestly has more to do with the brain than actual direct physical stimulation (of lips/hands/etc).
And/But I do believe it when they say the brain is the most important sex organ.
When we lived in Monterey we had, approximately, twelve-thousand nursing babies in our ward. Seriously–we had five, fully-staffed nurseries. And the mother’s lounge was obviously too small, so the bishop bought ten or eleven rocking chairs and moved them all into the kitchen. Until it was discovered that the Young Men were sneaking over to see if they could get nip-views from the outside windows.
I found this hilarious. Especially because we were only two hours from San Francisco, where I saw more nippage in ten minutes of walking along the street than I had seen in ten years of taking showers with my own chest.
Now that I think about it, I am irritated that the women had to move back to the smelly closet because a few boys were not able to be controlled by their parents. And, seriously, let them look. You know what is not Hawt? A giant, milky boob.
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
So, were mothers actually moved back there? Did anyone try to nurse elsewhere? What methods of suggestion were used? Did the bishop make announcements at each stage? SO curious.
Loved the San Francisco comment. I stare at my own boobs in the shower, so I probably couldn’t say the same, but that’s only to take care of the stray hairs. ;p
La Yen Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
I don’t think it was ever addressed in public–just in our presidency meeting it was mentioned, and then the rockers were gone. Sad. And I was young and five years from even WANTING kids, so I didn’t even think to speak up. All the women seemed to just take it as a normal thing to do–to Protect the Boys’ Eyes.
ok…my breasts failed me. with the first I never produced ANHYTHING and left the hospital smaller than wehn I got pregnant. With # 2, we were just fighting to keep him growing….and sleeping and doing anhything babies were supposed to do. with # 3 I finally got milk for the first time in 3 babes, when he was 3 weeks old….so from that perspective, particularly when it was close to the times I was dealing with that stuff, it was hard to see others breastfeeding because it just reinforced to me that I was failing my boys somehow.
I don’t really care one way or the other if you do, so long as you are ALLOWED to thru either rules or culture…not sure if that makes sense.
Steff
Jane Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Sorry to hear how hard it was, and I’m impressed you kept trying.
Yes, the allowed thing is big — through actual stated rules and cultural acceptance.
I have to say, here in the UK I felt more uncomfortable bottle feeding a baby than I ever did breastfeeding. That’s not to say that breastfeeding openly is approved of, just that to be a nice middle class mum bottle feeding a baby is like the ultimate sin – bad mother! Seriously. When I switched to bottle and I used to take the kids to baby & toddler groups I used to go feed the baby in the toilet. Sat on the toilet. Cos the looks I’d get if I bottle fed in front of those nice middle class mums. Yep the Breastfeeding Police were out to get me.
And when I was in hospital after having my first, he wasn’t thriving. So they said that I might have to top up with a bottle (I had no problem with that). Except that they couldn’t give me any advice about bottle feeding cos the government would only let them promote breastfeeding. So I had to work it out on my own!
I never did any of the cover up stuff when I breastfed though. Once the babies were big enough I’d just stuff them up my t-shirt (I had a friend show me a great technique!). Breastfed on buses, at cafes, on park benches, pretty much anywhere. But then they were frequent feeders, so if I hadn’t got used to feeding out and about I’d never have got out of the house! I think if you are reasonably discreet about it it’s fine. But I think even I’ve been slightly uncomfortable when people I’ve known have breastfed completely uncovered – bare breasted – in front of me. Does that make me a prude?
Jane Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 8:57 am
That is awful. I admit that when I see a bottle-feeding baby, I’m curious — was he not thriving, did the mother have primary lactation failure (which affects approximately 2% of women), did the mom try? But I hope that I don’t make those moms feel uncomfortable. (Well, I know I don’t, because I talk to them and so far haven’t let my curiosity even let me ask why. After all, well, hmm, maybe it would be okay if someone asked me why I was breastfeeding — but not if they asked why I was doing it in public ;p).
And despite all my protestations, I, too, have felt uncomfortable when confronted w/ a bare breasted breastfeeder, but after the first shock, I just looked the other way.
Jane Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 9:16 am
(okay — or tried to ;p)
For me, b-feeding in public was all about comfort levels. In some places (and with certain people), I was comfortable enough to do it. In others (and around cerain people) I wasn’t. Like many moms, if I was tense or uncomfortable, my let-down just wasn’t gonna happen easily.
That said, I did nurse in public quite a bit, mostly with #2 and #3 because once you’ve got other little ones to watch, you can’t always escape to some quiet, private place to feed the baby. But I was ever mindful of doing it discreetly and I don’t really remember any dirty looks or any strangers saying anything to me. That I would remember because I would have smart mouthed right back at them!
So interesting to learn about the women’s subways in Cairo. How did you and Tom manage – did you just separate and then meet back up at the next stop?
Jane Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 11:42 am
I usually only took the subway to go to class (the ones I took at AUC and the ones I taught in conversational English at a Coptic church), and for both of those, Tom was home with Avery, so I rode alone. If we were both going downtown, we usually took a taxi, which, compared to the States were dirt-cheap, stinky, scary deathtraps (but fast). I remember at least once riding in the men’s car with Tom and his colleague (because I wanted to see what it was like), and after that I appreciated the womens-only more.
The subway in Cairo is not air-conditioned and doesn’t have nearly as many lines as ours in NYC and DC do (the only ones in the U.S. I’ve ridden). The scariest subway I’ve been on, though, was in Rome. The crowdedest (and most likely to get groped), Japan. Nicest? Toss-up btw London and DC.
(More than you asked, I know, but I once thought it would be awesome to travel the world in order to ride every conveyance there is).
Holy moly you get a lot of comments! I haven’t read them yet, but I will definitely come back as this topic is always interesting to me. I got over shyness about nervous very quickly with my first baby. I even nursed her in sacrament meeting just before she was blessed because she was such an easy one to nurse and it calmed her. I like to stay covered up, but I don’t even blush or care if the blanket slips and exposes me a bit if I am nursing in a mall or park or somewhere like that. I am just feeding my babe! Most people have been great about it, but it is pretty liberal where I live.
Jane Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 8:06 am
Hey Kim, you’ll notice a lot of these comments are me responding to people, or readers responding back, and it’s only the “controversial” posts that get this much interest. My nice fluffy posts sometimes get completely ignored ;p.
Someone said in the comments (InkMom?) that if you have any modesty left after the freakshow (my word) that is giving birth, then you’re lucky. And I agree — once you’re nursing someone who depends on you for all nutrition, worries about exposure seem pretty unimportant.
I didn’t know “Utah people” were like that! Here the “Arizona people” will nurse in front of each other, and most don’t cover up or use Hooter hiders. If you are very small like me, it’s no big deal to conceal a little if wanted. But if you are not so small like my favorite sis-in-law (you know the one I”m talking about) then it’s quite a challenge to nurse in public without something to cover herself. I can’t imagine leaving someones house to go home and nurse! Even last Sunday we were in the bishop’s office meeting him for the first time (we just moved) and my baby was crying and hungry and I just fed him right then and there! Seriously, that’s what our boobs were made for, so why be so secretive and goofy about it!