The other night I was helping Sally with her homework. I am fundamentally opposed to homework for elementary school kids, but Sally, age 8, third grade, feels better if she does it. So I help her with it. And some of it isn’t bad; it’s games for her to play with a parent, or a twenty-minute reading assignment that she does over by a factor of ten.
That night we were doing math. Mr. Bennet helped her first the night before, but he does not see math as clearly as I do, so I took over. Sally tells me that she doesn’t like math, isn’t good at it, it’s hard.
This breaks my heart. Why? Because I was good at math. Ergo, the oldest fruit of my womb is also good at math. Naturally. (Ergo, also, anything she wants to master she can, though we are not responsible for musical aspirations.)
(And when I explain it to her visually, concrete-ly, metaphorically, the light does go on.)
I asked her about piercing her ears at eight, because I was eight when I got my ears pierced.
She likes many foods that I did not as a child, but when she gags at the thought of onions or garlic, I smile tolerantly. More for me, I say, and you might change your mind when you’re older, I say.
I joke a lot about not looking forward to the teen (and pre-teen!) years with my three daughters. If they are anything like I was at that age, we are going to need a lot more kleenex, several beater cars, and patience as vast as the Sargasso Sea.
If they are anything like they are now, and barring alien personality-transplants they should at least resemble their current selves, it’s going to be awesome, a cross between Little House on the Prairie, Rainbow Valley, and Little Women, only with better hair, fewer Presbyterians, and no infallibly-wise Susan Sarandon mother figure. (Just me).
I read a post the other day where a mother was complaining about how difficult her daughter (also eight) is. Mother and daughter fight over what the daughter will wear to school. The daughter throws a tantrum to end all tantrums after not being allowed to cut bangs in her hair like her older sister. Mom and dad prefer their girl with long, thick hair, so no bangs it is. The daughter holds it together at the stylist, then cries inconsolably for an hour once home over wanting her hair how she wanted her hair.
And all the comments, many from mothers of similar daughters, commiserate. So sorry you have to deal with such a recalcitrant daughter! So headstrong! So willful! So impossible!
I check my calendar. And my passport. This is the twenty-first century, right? This is America?
Of course there are forms of self-expression that I will try my hardest to stamp out. Smoking. Sex before marriage. Swearing of the excessive and uncreative variety.
But bangs? Plaids paired with polka dots?
H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks, GIRL, shave your head if it makes you feel better! Wear magenta with burgundy! Ride your bike faster than all the boys! Get mud on your face! Everyday!
(Just don’t say math is too hard.)
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Do you realize if you homeschool, you only legally need to spend 4 hours a day–cause you can get it all done and have so much time for so much more. So my boys are at school 7 hours a day and come home to do about an hours more work? Before 6th grade? I find that terribly annoying! Especially when they manipulate with “games” for child and parent, like child and parent don’t do enough and need to have the school plan parent-child time. It’s neat to see how our children evolve with our strengths. Just because she doesn’t like math now doesn’t mean she won’t love it later. My junior has a teacher who really teaches and he’s starting to love it. It’s a shame it took this long, but it was well worth the wait!
Jane Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Good point on not needing the school to arrange parent-child time — although I usually encourage daddy to do those, because he’s been gone all day, and Sally loves to have his full attention.
Amen, sister
First, I found out how to get to comments again, yay!
Second, things like hair and clothes are NOT permanent.
And as much as I tried to convince my son Nathan which flip flops would last him the best, he wanted the trendy little ones that were white with a pattern. Has the pattern already half-worn off? Are they grungy and looking anything but white? Yes. Does he love them? Yes. Would he love the solid blue, brown, or red ones I tried to convince him to get because they would last a lot longer and wear better? Maybe. But who cares?
My mom *still* cares how I or my sisters do their hair. Boy, of the battles to pick…. (and all 4 of her daughters are grown, 3 of them are married, 2 have served missions, and 3 have between 1-3 children–we’re all adults here)
Let them rebel in areas that aren’t permanent. Pink hair (or blue, or purple) isn’t permanent. Even shaving one’s head isn’t permanent.
Picking out one’s own clothes is a fantastic sign of independence that I celebrate!
Though when my 4th grade son wore a red shirt to school, equally red-but-not-in-anyway-matching sports shorts w/ white stripes on the sides, long yellow soccer socks up to his knees, and work boots/shoes, I decided to start having him at least check his outfits with me, as other kids can be quite cruel by this age–Now I just let him wear whatever he wants at home, but have some sense of color sense at school since he has enough other issues to deal with.
Oh, and wearing the same pants or shirt more than 2 days in a row is not good, nor is putting the shirt back on the shelf and wearing it again within the week, without realizing it was dirty the first time. We now have a pretty solid rule of “wear it once and wash it,” since I have 3 boys. I used to check shirts and say if they could wear it again, but since they now independently dress themselves each day, I had to institute the “wear it once” policy so they don’t re-wear clothes they think are clean that are positively dirty.
BUT. Besides that, there’s so much that is NOT eternal. I’d rather set rules and bear testimony of why eternal principles are important, rather than fight over a clean room, a pair of sneakers, or yes, even the choice of book (And, as a mom, I often want so much to have them pick out “this” book or “that” book, and cringe when they pick simplistic books like Magic Tree House, or little drivel books that have words but are not literary. But hey, they’re reading, and did I mention they’re reading? So I re-check out classics for me, and point out great choices, but let them choose their own books).
Oh. And yay for fantastic 5th grade teachers this year who feel that homework should NOT be a nightmare. Especially for ADD kids who already are often behind in finishing up class assignments, let alone homework assignments. Like my son who I mentioned above, the one who has no fashion sense whatsover (which mostly I don’t care about). I’m in love with his team-teachers this year as well as his math teacher. All three are sensible parents first, then teachers!
Jane Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
I need to do the “wear it once” thing. I’ve gotten my girls trained to change their panties in the morning and after their evening bath, but sometimes Spot wants to wear the same shirt for days on end. I could probably compost off the stuff on her shirt.
(And if you wonder about changing panties morning and evening, you must not have little girls.)
Brad and I argue about this. Brad thinks the kids should have no say in hair and fashion. But there are so few things kids have choices in, and I think hair and fashion are good areas for those choices. I hate the buzz look on boys, but Max likes his hair buzzed, so I let him get it buzzed. Unfortunately for Jessamine though, her hair only grows in the back, it literally does not grow at all in the front, so we have to keep getting the back cut shorter so she doesn’t have a mullett. I must draw the line at mulletts.
I also have issues with the math thing. Max is very gifted in the math department, but for some reason he thinks he can’t do it. When we go to the tutoring program at church, the 8 year olds are struggling with the things Max, at age 6, has fun with on a daily basis. But if he gets to a more challenging place, he curls up and cries that he can’t do it, that he isn’t smart enough. I guess in a situation like this, being in a class would be helpful because he’d see that he’s actually far ahead for his age.
maryleigh- that depends on the state, here in new mexico you have to do 180 days of school, but the hours are not specified. the reason kids have to do so much more in school is that only a few hours are actually spent on schoolwork. There are breaks and time spent waiting in lines or waiting for the other kids to finish tests and such. and the teacher has to be very broad in her teaching to cover the whole spectrum of 30 kids. when i’m teaching my kids we’re very hands-on and it’s much more concentrated and personalized so we don’t have to spend as much time.
here i am being a comment whore again. i was reading kimberly’s comment and it reminded me of something else brad and i disagree on. when i was a kid my parents only ever got us the plainest, cheapest things, and nothing just for fun. so i always want my kids to have the special things they want. last week brad gave me a hard time because i bought the kids crayola toothbrushes with suction cups on the ends. they LOVE those toothbrushes! and he always gives me grief about the money i spend on birthday cakes. but when i saw jessamine’s face light up when she saw her pink tiara shaped princess cake, it was totally worth it. i’d rather go without some things for a couple weeks to get my kids the special things that make childhood so much fun than harangue over money.
Jane Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
I think it’s even more rewarding to give kids little surprises and “extras” when they are used to usually having not-fancy, thrift store, etc type stuff. They are so appreciative and excited over small things when they’re not generally spoiled, you know?
I’ve been on a “life-style change” for a couple months now, and Sally asked the other day if I’d make cookies. Those were a big treat for everyone after not having any sweets for awhile. So I definitely think little treats are worth every penny.
I’ll second that Amen. I gulped a few times when my oldest wanted to chop her waist length hair into a bob, but it’s her hair. I definitely believe in picking my battles, and I hope that hair (other than insisting that it is actually brushed or combed) will never be one of them.
Mmmmm Yeah. Hair is the least of the battles. Clothes (for the most part) either. Pick the hills you’re willing to die on – their faith, sex, drugs, smoking, hanging out with creepers, etc. If you let them express themselves in relatively unimportant areas, they won’t be so inclined to rebel in the really important ones. (and yes – piercings grow out too – but it really sucks when they have them – and all your religious friends go – “you let them pierce _________”. . . It feels really good when your kid calls and tells you they decided to take out their lip ring because they’ve out grown it though)
Good point and good post!
Jane Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Yeah, I got a second piercing when I turned 18, and it’s now grown in . . . finally.
I have always felt that whenever possible children should be allowed to make choices. They decide on hair and clothes. Sometimes we set limits (any tennis shoes of these 3 brands or any clothes within these modesty standards).
That being said, I love that my daughter’s ultimate goal right now is to be just like me. I hope it lasts at least a few more years. I love when they show traits that I know came from me (even some of the annoying ones). And I can’t testify that I don’t try to influence their tastes and decisions, but ultimately I leave it up to them.
I did, however, chuckle a little about how long your ban on good/bad mother judgment lasted.
Jane Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Hey, I just reported what happened. I’m just, like, a journalist, no value judgment at all. (at least I didn’t use the word “good” or “bad,” right?
).
Jane Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Really, though.
A) You’re right — I’m not a very nice (or consistent) person.
B) In the original “Bad Mother Manifesto,” the argument was against a societal archetype of the Good Mother. I don’t think this piece really addresses whether the writer of the post I cited is a Good Mother or not.
C) I wonder — I think in the Good Mother construct, a “Good Mother” would be one whose children are well-dressed and groomed at all times, rather than the opposite.
D) I did try to look at this as — here’s a way of denying some kid her autonomous self, her right to be herself. (If someone told me I had to do my hair a certain way, I’d throw the biggest tantrum EVER.) — So I immediately tried to examine if I do similar things to my kids, and yes I do, with the math and the food and the earrings, etc. But I want to be more careful, going forward, that I respect my daughters as individuals, with their own rights and freedoms, not just as extensions of myself.
So, while you’re right that I am making a judgment about this certain way of parenting, I am honestly judging it in myself too, and wanting to do it better.
Charlotte Reply:
September 26th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
I think you are very nice and I love your honest self evaluations. And I know you consitently write posts that make me think.
I completely disagree with that sort of parenting style, too. I think it either breaks a child’s spirit or causes them to rebel. And I enjoyed how you related it to the subtle (and not always so subtle) push parents are guilty of giving their children in certain directions.
I think the good/bad mother construct is difficult to remove oneself from because we constantly must judge actions. They can be “not really for me” or they can be “a good idea” or they can be “totally wrong.” Or perhaps somewhere inbetween? Without some sort of judgment on others’ actions, how can we decide the correct course of action for ourselves? Without judging that parent’s reaction as inappropriate, you wouldn’t have examined your own reactions and made your own resolves. In essence you reevaluated your parenting style after judging another’s style “inappropriate.” Or perhaps recognized their style as a more extreme version of your own (more reasobnable)attempts to “control” your children’s lives and made a conscious judgment to not move further in that direction.
I just thought the juxtaposition of last week’s post with this one was a little ironic.
See I see both sides of this. Free expression is one thing….I dont care 90% of the time what they wear etc. But I do draw a certain line. There will be no mohawks, no hats worn backwards, and no jeans around their knees. we are obviously still the ones buying their clothes and paying for the home they live in and out of respect for us and others we expect certain rules to be followed.
growing up late 80s the Coke shirt was all the rage i am sure some of you remember them. My dad’s policy was that he wasnt going to spend 60$ of his money to advertise for them, I remember how steadfast he was about it. Now we were aallowed to spend our own money on such things, and i did have a few of them when all was said and done.
But other things when he said no he wasnt buying it it was a ssolid line and tghe answer was just plain no. I dont see anything wrong with that.
I am very careful as well about the clothing I buy the kids, I will not buy anything produced by the various rap stars etc because I do not want to promote that kind of lifestyle and I believe allowing the kids to wear it says that we condone such things.
steff
Jane Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 10:56 am
You make several good points — especially about buying clothes. My parents wouldn’t buy me Girbaud jeans when I was sixteen. I had to save up my own money, and good for them! Also, I do insist on modesty, which is pretty easy now, bec. they have their choice of wearing anything I buy, and I only buy modest stuff.
Since I don’t have boys, I haven’t worried about mohawks or the other boy stuff you mention, but I certainly understand and respect your reasoning!
Kimberly Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Steff, that’s where I see the subjectivity of individual parenting styles come in, because I do also draw some lines. I especially agree with not paying a designer price for a designer pair of jeans, unless my child wants to earn their own money and spend it all on that one pair of jeans or whatnot. Then they learn the value of the money, and I don’t fork over a lot for fads.
On the other hand, while I might fuss about a mohawk at first, I actually begged my brother to give one of my kids a mohawk over his own son, as I knew he was doing it just to infuriate his ex-wife. To me, the mohawk would have been temporary, and would grow out in less than a year.
But it is nice right now that I’m the one who buys my kids’ clothes, or gives them boundaries within the choices/prices I am willing to purchase. When they get older I’m sure my desire for control will be challenged, as much as I speak out for their individuality now! ; )
But because I’ve had a brother (same one) who rebeled at the control over issues that had no pertinence to his eternal salvataion, he threw a lot of those things in my parents’ faces, and quickly saw that the church was of value to my family, and rebelled in many ways that do pertain to his eternal salvation (though luckily God loves him just as much as any of us, and knows his path and is the one in charge of him, not me, so I choose not to worry or judge).
Now, I am just tickled if he chooses to attend a family reunion or attend a church meeting when a family member gives a talk. It doesn’t matter to me that he shows up to church in a hawaiian shirt, shorts, and flip flops, with all of his tatoos, shaved head, and earrings (and does he have earrings! He has an eyebrow piercing, a belly button piercing, nipple piercings, as well as a couple ear piercings, and usually hangs out in boxers and flip flops when I come to visit him.
While he feels the need to express himself externally (especially since he lives in Utah, in “mormon” territory), I don’t see this as who he is, or who anyone is–it’s the packaging. He’s a good brother and father, a good employee and leader. While he chooses a lot of things in his life that don’t bring him closer to God, it is my Christlike love for him that has changed my perception of how I will raise my children, allowing them choice in smaller things so that they don’t feel the need to rebel in those little things as well as big things.
And then there are people like me who don’t rebel outwardly, but who resent and feel pressured and guilty because we feel we will disappoint our parent or they will disapprove if we don’t do what they want, wear what they want, etc. It has taken me years to work through even this one little issue (clothes and hair).
Now, on the other hand, I don’t know the circumstances of the mom who’s little girl wanted bangs. It may be that it was part of a much larger issue that was relevent and important to the mother in principle, that we don’t realize wasn’t just about hair or clothes, but about attitude or whatnot.
I do know that because of my experience growing up, I will be super careful not to put the church between myself and my children. In fact, Elder Cook (of the seventy, or was of the seventy) gave this incredible talk on having family scripture study on a regular basis, and really covers this in a way that it’s worth it for y’all to read (I listened to mine on CD; I think it might have been an Education Week talk).
I am preparing myself for if or when any of my children try to use shock value and rebellion to 1) get a rise out of me, 2) find a reason to blame the church over family discipline issues, etc. I watched my brother in high school use filthy language just because he realized how it would upset my parents. I learned very quickly just from that to recognize what my children can try to use “against” me in the power struggles children can raise.
But, enough from me. Here’s yet another epistle! : )
Wow. I would be lying if I didn’t say this was hurtful to come and read.
Shea's friend Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Wow Shea, looks like you have a secret stalker at hand. Block this one if you can. You don’t need to be gossiped about behind you back. To bad we aren’t as perfect as Seagull Fountain. Hey, take it as a compliment that people find you interesting to talk about, lol! If they only knew that you don’t mess with Shea-Shea:)
Kimberly Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Shea, are you the mom of the little girl that wanted bangs?
If you are, or a mom who feels similarly to that mom, please don’t take Jane’s comments personally. I feel like she is trying to point out that there are a lot of things that we may desire control over in our children’s lives, that just really aren’t that important when viewed in an eternal perspective. Even if we’re afraid people will judge us (i.e. my son wearing quite the outfits to school, or even choosing not to comb his hair, or worse yet wearing the same dirty shirt 3 days in a row), I’ve come to an understanding that it’s really important to give our children a lot of choice, especially over things like hair and clothes, so that they can make mistakes over little things, and not blow it on much weightier choices when they are teens with raging emotions and hormones. People will just have to judge me, and I have to choose to let it go, because it’s more important to me that my kids have a lot of sense of control in their lives in whatever areas possible, to help them manage growing into little adults who will later be bigger adults that are contributing members to our society (at least we hope so!).
My mom wishes like crazy that she wasn’t such a control-freak when we were growing up, because while I pushed it down and it emotionally scarred me, my brother said “No way!” and did the complete opposite of the controls she & my dad tried to exert.
While there were many controls that were important and necessary (i.e. safety, good manners & respect, hurting others or putting down others), they stood so solid on controls that were NOT of any more significance than how my parents cared that they happened (i.e. like how I did my hair, which my mom still cares about now, when I’m 32!!!!). This backfired greatly for them, most greatly with my brother and another sister, but caused emotional harm and repression to those of us who didn’t outwardly rebel. We also made some extra dumb mistakes when we got out on our own and didn’t have that tight parental control.
My desire in commenting on this thread is not to judge you or what you chose to do, but to express how I have seen this exact thing blow up in my parents’ faces, and why I feel it’s important to let children choose things like what they wear to school and how they do their hair. I have also been taught as teacher about allowing children as many choices (even things like “Do you want to take this test before recess or after recess? On blue paper or red paper?”), and recently heard some talks on it at a Family Symposium put on in my area.
The point is that when you give your children as much voice in the choices you DO allow them to make (I completely agree there are choices they don’t get a voice in, and quite importantly so, as you can see around the bend and they can’t yet), you are teaching them, “I value you and your choices, and I TRUST you to make choices.” When we continue to control their actions and choices even in insignificant matters, we are teaching them, “I don’t trust that you will make the right decision yourself,” which leads to the opposite of the empowerment we want to instill in our children to help them become contributing members to society and hopefully people with a great testimony of God and His plan of salvation.
All of that aside, I am sorry for being a part of hurting your feelings. I really thought about it, and no matter even how insightful someone’s comments might be in opposition to mine, it would embarrass and hurt me personally to know that someone had taken something off my blog and used it as an example (even if only implied) of unwise parenting.
My children are also difficult over many things, especially my oldest who whines and cries and fusses over having to do homework period, which is something I am constantly seeking to find a way that it’s handled in such a way that it’s not a power struggle, and in the meantime am really praying and trying to find ways to help him understand the value of education.
Piano practicing is also a fight sometimes, and I treat that one very, very carefully because he is talented, and enjoys playing, and I don’t want to push that love from him just over getting practicing done. Again I continue to seek ways to help him value the talent and remember how much he enjoys it, so he doesn’t struggle with the part where he just sits down and gets to the practicing (which, whenever he finally puts his mind to it, he really does love piano). But the piano is not a deal-breaker to me, and if he uses it against me or I find that it’s me who wants him to continue and not him, it won’t be worth it to me to die on that hill. With the homework, I will be quiet and consistent in helping him learn good homework habits to help him learn as he continues in school, and be able to function at jobs and other things in life that require any sort of “homework.” (including callings!) ; )
In fact, I’ve been meaning to post on my blog a comic of a mom asking her kids to do their chores. While I recognize my children are human and are going to react poorly to having responsibility, I also work on keeping my temper and exasperation down, and being patient and consistent that they are part of being a family and part of integrating into society. So, the mom says “Please set the table.” The first panel comments that this is what Mom says. The second panel says, “What they hear,” and shows the two grief-stricken children and a blurb above the mom’s head that says, “I want to remove all joy from your life while everyone else is having fun.” My favorite is their reaction–they both cry out in unison, “AGAIN???!!!???” I have to laugh at this or sometimes I would cry, because it is hard when children are difficult about so many things, even simple chores like taking out the garbage or getting on their jammies.
But I also as a parent feel that I need to choose my battles wisely, and am very careful not to hang my head over things that are simply not important in the long run. I even say to myself, “Will this matter in 10 years? If he dislikes swimming lessons this much but is water safe, who cares if I wait 2 more years before trying swimming lessons again?” (my 5 yr old, who wasted my money two years in a row he hated it so much, and it took me until the third year to say, “Wait a minute. I don’t HAVE to be like every other mom and sign him up for swimming lessons. I can swim with him and let him enjoy it instead of hate it, and let him mature and see where we are a year or two from now”)
Anyway, please know, I wasn’t judging you–I was observing that what seemed like an obstinant daughter to you, seemed to me like she could later become obstinant because of your control over her hair and clothes–over much more significant issues like sex, drugs, etc (like my brother got into, and still is an alcoholic to this day). It wasn’t my intention to hurt you at all.
Sally Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
It is the parents right to make decisions for their child and it’s no one elses right or place to judge the parents. In no way, shape or form is Shea’s daughter going to suffer emotional turmoil because she didn’t get bangs…Jane, you know better!
Kay Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
DITTO!!!!
Kimberly Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Sally, I am the one who mentioned emotional turmoil, not Jane. And I am speaking of my own experience. Throughout my life a LOT of little superficial things were strongly controlled or I was emotionally manipulated over them.
If it had just been once that my mom wouldn’t let me cut my bangs, wear my hear a certain way, or wear a particular outfit to school, you’re right–no big deal. I mean, kids are statistically unhappy 50% of the time. But it was much, much more than that throughout my whole growing-up life (though I’m getting better at asserting myself now w/out feeling guilty, and not enabling my mom); it was a lot of things, even the grief I suffered over just wanting to choose what I wanted for my wedding (dress, decorations, flowers, cake, whether or not we smashed cake, what could go with the flowers…). No bride should have to agonize over whether she keeps the peace or gets the wedding she’s dreamed of since she was a little girl.
I was not inferring that Shea’s daughter (if Shea is indeed the mom who posted about the bangs & clothes incidents) would suffer emotional turmoil, but that I did, and I cited several specific reasons why I feel the way I do about letting insignificant & superficial things be chosen by my children.
Specific reasons I agree with Jane:
1. both my and my brother’s opposite but strong reactions to a lot of superficial control in our lives,
2. Love and Logic books & statistics about giving children freedom and control in “safe” areas and allowing them to fail in smaller areas instead of the bigger ones,
3. teaching education at Ricks & BYU about trusting and empowering children through as much choice as possible where appropriate,
4. and talks/family symposiums about saving power struggles for weightier matters, like steady dating before sixteen, sex, drugs, truancy, etc)
5. A CD by Elder Gene R Cook about family scripture study that really touches on much, much more about teaching and testifying to our children without letting the church come between us w/ discipline.
STILL. I really feel for the mom, as I recently wrote a post about being openly judged in Walmart http://recoveringidealist.blogspot.com/2009/09/being-judged-sucks.html It really hurt. Even though I was happy up to the moment of the woman’s comment. Until her comment, I was happy that my boys were happy and not fighting, and that they were enjoying themselves.
Sally Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
I actually didn’t realize you had used those words since I didn’t read your comment. I tend to get bored when reading long comments…i dunno, ADD or something.
Becky Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Wow you were emotionally manipulated over bangs!! That is a very strong accusation to make.
Kimberly Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
It is a strong accusation to make, but it is true. I was emotionally manipulated over a LOT of things that were not moral issues, even long after I got married.
It is truly only in the last couple of years that I have been successful in separating the emotions from the issues, even though my mom hasn’t.
But please understand that on the other hand, I love my mom and she is wonderful, and has so many marvelous character traits that I aspire to. We just happen to be talking in this post about one particular issue (giving children choices over some things that are not moral issues) that caused me great grief growing up, feeling torn between making independent choices and being who my mother thought I should be.
Jane Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Shea,
I’m sorry I hurt you. That was honestly not my intent, and I apologize. Every family is different, of course, as is every mother, and I know there are things I do personally, and as a mother, that are much worse than anything I mentioned in this post.
I know that I don’t have a perfect relationship with my daughter despite my best intentions. Reading your post made me want to step back and examine how I see her (especially my oldest) as an extension of myself, as the public face of our family when she interacts with teachers and friends at school, etc, and in my examination, I decided that, among other things, I want to be more respectful of my daughter’s own personality, her likes and dislikes, her self.
For me, for our family, for my daughter, that includes not dictating how she wears her hair, or what clothes she wears (as long as they’re modest — that I will dictate, and some would say that is wrong). I respect your right to choose differently for your daughters, and I apologize again for being insensitive and hurtful.
(And could I please ask any future commenters to refrain from personal attacks. I set a bad example in the beginning and I ask that you be better than me.)
Wow! I can’t believe all this hub-bub. I can’t believe Shea is all up in arms and saying someone is mean for expressing a different opinion. I don’t personally know the owner of this blog but I do know Shea and I know how she worries about those superficial things. Nevertheless– I felt the owner of this blog was trying to be respectful and just expressing a different opinion that comes from a perspective of someone who has seen what controlling our children too much can do. She was in no way saying that Shea’s daughter is going to suffer emotional turmoil over the bangs and you are jumping to conclusions. Shea has a right to post her opinions on the web as do others- if they are conflicting- great! That just gets the conversation going but don’t make it personal and say “You know better.” Better than what- having different parenting ideas and expressing them. Really?
Sally Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Judge not, lest ye be judged…we are all guilty of it and some of us including Jane own up to it and apologize, which I thought was sweet. Where exactly did shea say that jane was being mean?? All she said was that she was hurt…who’s jumping to conclusions, ex-friend?
Ex-friend of Shea Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
On facebook.
Kimberly,
I appreciate your choosing to reply to me and where you are coming from. In the area where we live the mohawk and goth apparel and even the skater apparel tend to lend themself to the drug trade and it is not acceptable i dont care if it grows out in 3 weeks.
I dont care if they want to paint themself blue and get 20 tattoos but they wont have a mohawk.
I am not a member of your church though my husband is.
I was allowed plenty of freedom within some stricter outer limits…IE…even the clothing I bought had to meet with the standards my parents set, but I was allowed to choose anythng within those limits…
That will pretty much be the way we handle it as well.
I had few hard and fast rules but I knew them and I knew the punishments for them…
No Lying
No Drinking w/out prior discussion w/my parents about parties
No sneaking around
No smoking
Dress w/ in my moms moral standards
as long as those rules were followed I could do anything I wanted, go to concertss, dances, dating, whatever.
My kids will have similar amounts of both rules and freedoms.
there are actions and ways of talking/looking/dressing that are more or less appropriate depending on what part of the country you live in.
I have friends who have taught their children that the only authority they have to listen to is God and to question everyone elsse. Now my thoughts are that while God is the final authority in the Bible he tells to respect the authority of parents, adn teachers, and even th government…And as parents it is our job to teach our kids that sometimes we dont get our way. and there are things that have to be done whether we want to do them or not. That is life.
My boys are 5 nd 6 and 9 mos. the older two are allowed to dress themselves however they want from the clothing they have available in their drawers/closet.
Some days I regret this particularly when the 5 year old comes out with sweats of any kind and an equally ugly shirt but his teacher knows he is allowed to dress himself.
Kimberly Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Steff, thank you also for your reply! And of course I love to hear anyone’s opinions regardless of their religion/moral views. Sorry I catered my comments to my religion; I usually try be much more broad, but in this case many of my parenting choices stem straight from my moral religious convictions.
LOL! I also sometimes regret letting there be independence in clothing oneself, and admit that I do care what people think, so will comment to a teacher or parent that my child dressed themselves (because I think they will judge me for dressing them so poorly). I shouldn’t care what they think, and I’m still working on it. You saw in my earlier comments that I only started censoring when my fourth grader was wearing some crazy outfits to school, because he’s old enough to get pretty cruel treatment from other kids. But at home I’m still very flexible.
Sounds like some pretty good rules in your family, and I completely agree that our children must learn that we don’t get everything we want all the time. And I also agree that we really try to instill our moral values in our children, because they are the fiber of why we are who we are.
I also agree with you about not teaching my children to obey God but question everyone else. Our children are the future, truly. For them to contribute to society and keep it going, there must be respect for authority on the whole (and of course I know there are exceptions where authority figures abuse their authority). In fact, I was just sharing with some scouts I teach that if we disagree with how things are done (in the community, at school, in the govt.), we seek to find solutions through the right channels (like voting, etc), rather than just disobeying rules that are intended to help society function, even if some of those rules are outdated or don’t fit their function very well.
Ok, I also had to laugh out loud at the painting oneself blue and tattoos but no mohawks. : ) Again, that comes from your experiences and your environment (i.e. mohawks tend to go w/ drugs in your area), which I completely respect. I’m sure there a couple of hard and fast rules that apply to our area–we happen to not allow group sleepovers, because of the overwhelming statistics of things going wrong at them (not just possibilities of sexual impropriety, but of games like truth or dare that *can* get out of hand, no chaperones or not enough chaperoning, groups deciding to make dumb choices like pulling out porn or introducing other unhealthy things, choices to vandalize, bullying or ostracizing where the group turns on someone, and so on). Not to mention grumpy children the next day who are miserable to be around. We have allowed one sleepover so far where my oldest (10) had his best friend over on his birthday, but we chaperoned quietly without letting the kids know we were doing so, so the boys thought they just got to have a lot of fun. I’ve also allowed sleepovers with cousins if I feel comfortable with the parent(s) who will oversee the sleepovers. Now, a ton of people could think I’m crazy, but it’s simply a rule at our house due to the environment that sleepovers sometimes create. Just like I won’t let kids drive on New Year’s Eve and day, because it is the highest statistical day of the year for DUI accidents and deaths.
So, I completely understand that there are some no-budge rules, or rules that have very little flexibility, depending on where we live and what we find the norms to be where we are.
It’s interesting that every single one of the rules in your family are rules my brother broke in our family; I’m really curious what your parents’ consequences would have been for smoking, as my brother has wished for half of his life that he had never started (he’s 30 now). I don’t know if it was just my brother’s personality to buck the morals my parents tried to instill (the “why” along with the dos & don’ts), or if a lot of the control my parents exerted over superficial areas chaffed so much that he resisted by breaking ALL the rules, especially the “big” ones. Which was hard for my parents to consequate, when his sneakiness, lying, and evasiveness made it very hard for them to fully know the extent of what he was involved in (he was drinking and doing drugs long before they realized it, because he kept it so well hidden until he was so entrenched it was obvious). Then, when he started running away from home they had no more control at all.
Once he went to jail (for posession of drugs & open containers & a loaded gun while driving a stolen car, with another passenger) and had ALL his freedoms removed, that seemed to be the catylist for him. I have not known of any more drug use or stealing since he got out of jail. It seemed he really valued the freedoms that were slowly returned to him.
I really like your idea of having some hard and fast rules, and then also allowing a lot of freedom. I think that our children need the rules and boundaries, really. Then they know we care enough not to let them stay up so late they can’t function, or eat so much food/dessert they get sick, just for some easy examples. Or hurt other people in the family with their words or physical actions. Or be disrespectful to their teachers or friends.
And I also agree with giving a lot of freedoms in areas where they have some “safe” places to fail. Meaning if they make some poor choices, let them do it in areas that won’t affect them long-term.
Clearly I have a lot of opinions in this area, as I keep filling up the comments!
Thanks for the apology Jane. I wasn’t going to come here because I didn’t want to further this but I do want to thank you for your words. As my SIL said, “Can’t we all just get along?” It was very shocking to come to a blog and read my own words used to mock me. If you knew me as a person, you’d know I give my children a lot of choices and they are great kids. I’m not perfect and apparently have made some “ex friends”
along the way but I’m doing the best I can.
Jane Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
I apologize again, Shea. I hoped to make it sound as if I was mocking myself as well as (more than) you. I obviously haven’t met your daughters, and I’m sure they’re fantastic. We have a history at our house of making bad hair choices (me as well as the kids), so maybe I am extra sensitive about that sort of thing — also the coincidence of both our daughters being 8, just led me to make comparisons.
Also, I thought what you said about your kids’ personalities changing from when they were babies was really interesting. It seems with my kids we go along for several months with nothing unexpected, and then one or all of them will hit a growth spurt (mental or physical) and all the sudden sometimes I feel like I don’t even know them for a few days until I get used to the knew things they can do or the new things they care about.
(and finally, I’m sorry again.)
Unfortunately, children these days are part of the “me” generation! Parents giving into a childs’ every want is only teaching them they never have to wait or work for something they want… Instant gratification. Thus when they must wait for something the tantrums insue! I don’t see any problem with setting limits and boundraries for our children. Having a child pitch a fit about bangs is normal. What is not normal is an adult giving into the childs’ tantrum!!! If this child is wanting bangs because her sister is getting them, does she really want bangs? Maybe the wait will help her figure out her own personal style. Isn’t that what we really want for our children… self discovery and acceptance?
What I think is sad is hearing about so many resenting their parents parenting style, thus choosing the polar opposite style, throwing the baby out with the bath water! I didn’t agree with every parenting technique my parents used but I think I turned out okay and am a pretty level headed adult. I think that is true of most here, too. So why the need to go so completely opposite of those that raised you? Hard for me to get my head around that!
Kids need some limits and boundraries to become successful citizens of life, so I feel it is a parents job to “Just Say NO”!!!!
Jane Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
I think you’re absolutely right that children need limits, boundaries, and to learn to wait for things they want. However, I disagree that a parent should dictate how an 8 year old wears her hair. As has been mentioned in several comments, I am all for letting children make as many of their own decisions as possible. In this case, if a child decided later that she didn’t really want bangs, that would be a good lesson for her to learn, and either way, bangs or not, this is not a moral issue (in my eyes). And if it is not a moral issue, but rather a matter of style and personal preference, I think that any person’s (whether daughter or friend or stranger) personal preferences should be respected, even by her mother.
I appreciate my parents’ parenting style quite a bit — in fact, most of the good parenting habits and practices that I am able to employ are things I learned from my parents. (who mostly shrugged when I shaved my head at 19).
Kimberly Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Another Point–
I completely agree with you about instant gratification; and think that we cripple our children if we give them what they want, when they want, all or most of the time. It’s a biggie in my house that we often work and are patient for the things we want, with the occasional special treat “just because.” Also, if we’ve already made a decision as a couple or as a family, and then a temper tantrum is thrown, not only do they still not get what they wanted, they also get a new consequence, too, as that’s not appropriate at home, at school, or at a job, so we try to nip it in the bud. But if we haven’t made a decision and we’re weighing options, we are open to opinions and desires, and sometimes use family democracy, and sometimes not. It really depends on the situation. If we’re still open to discussion and the child becomes whiny and emotionally manipulative or starts begging about what they want, we give a warning, sometimes even two warnings, that the answer will be no, and we very strictly enforce that.
Anyway, my point is, I was talking about something very different than instant gratification when I speak of giving our kids some choices in their little lives rather than controlling things that really don’t matter long-term.
While I resented my parents’ way of overly controlling a lot of superficial things, I also recognize the value in the control they set for some weighty matters that were a protection to me growing up. I also follow in their footsteps in many ways because I value a lot of the really good things they did, and I take all the good I learned from my parents and pour that into my parenting (and we add all the good things from my husband’s parents, and weed out the things we felt weren’t emotionally healthy for their kids).
But this particular issue is sensitive to me because it was very scarring to me to be so emotionally controlled, especially over such insignificant things, even though I know my parents were well-intended, as were my in-laws in how they chose to parent.
Though I don’t feel I’ve gone the polar opposite. I certainly choose areas where I enforce control in my children’s lives that I think is necessary, (and had a lot more control when they were only 2, LOL!) but I really pick my battles, and keep seeking to learn from many valuable sources ways to teach and empower my children to be contributing members of society. Which includes a LOT of “NOs.” But I also try to include a lot of “YESes” where I’m ok with the yes outcomes (i.e. safe areas for them to fail or succeed, and feel empowered).
I may not give a choice over when bedtime is, but I let them pick out their jammies. I may not give a choice about whether or not they attend school or extra-curricular activities that they have chosen (and later, of course, hit the slump of “this isn’t fun anymore”), but allow them to make choices about what they wear, and whether or not they want to re-visit keeping up an extra-curricular activity within a month of the time they complained (i.e., not right when they wanted the instant gratification of quitting; and they’ve never quit after that, they always return to the love of what they picked before the “trial” period is up, LOL!)
Once again I’m probably the wordiest commenter out here, so I apologize! I really wish I were more concise! But thank you for your insight, “Another Point.” This post and all of its comments have certainly led me to a lot of mommy introspection. : )
jane,
i agree with you on the bangs for the most part. its not a moral issue etc. and to be totally honest this is another one of those topics where truly i am glad i have boys. they *currently* think its cool to look like daddy and consequently all have buzz cuts or high and tight or whatever you want to call it…i dont like it but its not worth arguing with them over…
i wanted bangs really bad when i was about 10. had begged my mom, and when that didnt work waited till i got to my grandmas and begged her…still didnt work…i cut em myself…it took a full year for them to grow out enough to look good really….i had cut them waaaay too far toward the middle of my head…
steff
Have I mentioned yet that I adore you? Lucy’s still not two, but I try to give her reasonable choices in our day, and find that it seriously cuts down on tantrums. If I offer three shirts, and let her pick one, I spent less time chasing a screaming toddler who’s yelling NO SHIRT MAMA!! I love my daughter’s long red curls, but I’d like to believe that if she wanted it bobbed, and was in tears over it, I’d let her do what she wants. Hair grows, after all. Sheesh.
Eek, the story about the girl not allowed to have her hair the way she wants it makes me so sad. I know a family just like that–the girls must have their hair long (boys, short) and it has to be “done.” In the 4 years I’ve known them, the girls always have to have at the very least, a ponytail (never down or with just a clip). I can’t imagine how much time is used up with washing, combing and fixing that hair. I let my children do whatever they want, hair and clothing-wise (well, sometimes I make them change if their clothes are particularly messy and we’re going somewhere). It’s such a little thing (to me) but it makes a huge difference to them. I do get asked a lot, though, if we’re going to a party/costume party… my little girl wears her fancy dresses, “Christmas” dresses and Halloween apparel year-round. Eh, if she likes it and we didn’t have to fight about her getting dressed, it’s totally worth it.
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