Comments on: With apologies to Bad Mothers everywhere http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/ online mother Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:38:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sometimes it takes a man | Seagull Fountain http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41458 Sometimes it takes a man | Seagull Fountain Mon, 21 Sep 2009 04:38:03 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41458 [...] my post about joining the Bad Mother camp, our good friend Josh left a comment that ends: It’s funny. “Bad Fathers,” I think, are men [...] [...] my post about joining the Bad Mother camp, our good friend Josh left a comment that ends: It’s funny. “Bad Fathers,” I think, are men [...]

]]> By: Motherboard http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41454 Motherboard Mon, 21 Sep 2009 03:40:23 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41454 <i>“Bad Fathers,” I think, are men who suffer from strained (or non-existent) relationships with their children. “Bad Mothers,” it seems, are women who suffer from strained relationships with other women.</i> Very well said! “Bad Fathers,” I think, are men who suffer from strained (or non-existent) relationships with their children. “Bad Mothers,” it seems, are women who suffer from strained relationships with other women.

Very well said!

]]> By: Motherboard http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41453 Motherboard Mon, 21 Sep 2009 03:38:12 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41453 I wonder how much of this "Good Mother" syndrome is from women trying not necessarily to appear to be a good mother, but rather the better mother? Some women are so competitive that they want to be viewed as the best mother, thus creating unreal or at least unrealistic ideas and expectations as to how one would accomplish that. I also wonder how much of it is women who have no other creative outlet, so all of their energy is thrust into mothering. Which isn't bad, but can create a monster, so to speak. Fantastic post! It's got the wheels a turning in that rusty old brain of mine. I wonder how much of this “Good Mother” syndrome is from women trying not necessarily to appear to be a good mother, but rather the better mother? Some women are so competitive that they want to be viewed as the best mother, thus creating unreal or at least unrealistic ideas and expectations as to how one would accomplish that. I also wonder how much of it is women who have no other creative outlet, so all of their energy is thrust into mothering. Which isn’t bad, but can create a monster, so to speak.

Fantastic post! It’s got the wheels a turning in that rusty old brain of mine.

]]> By: Josh http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41288 Josh Fri, 18 Sep 2009 04:16:18 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41288 I'm a father, so I concede from the get go that there's an awful lot about mothering I just don't understand. In fact, I'm always a little timid about commenting here and revealing my ignorance or wording something poorly and suffering for it later. Having said that, it pains me to see any mother (especially one as conscientious and loving as I know Jane is) embrace the title "Bad Mother," even if it is to thumb a nose at the harsh judgments of the robotic "Good Mothers." Maybe part of the problem here is that too many "Good Mothers" set arbitrary mothering rules and then spend their time sorting mothers into groups, the way you'd sort dimes from pennies. Ignoring these sorters is pretty hard, and I can certainly see how crying out, "Enough! Stick me in the 'Bad Mother' group" would be oh-so-liberating. And maybe another part of the problem is how we think of the word "good." "Good" things only seem to exist in comparison. A "good" cake, for example, only exists when we compare it to other less-tasty cakes. We deem a child "good" only after comparing her to other children. But do we have to use "good" competitively? Can't a mother be good for her children, regardless of what other mothers are doing? It's funny. "Bad Fathers," I think, are men who suffer from strained (or non-existent) relationships with their children. "Bad Mothers," it seems, are women who suffer from strained relationships with other women. I’m a father, so I concede from the get go that there’s an awful lot about mothering I just don’t understand. In fact, I’m always a little timid about commenting here and revealing my ignorance or wording something poorly and suffering for it later.

Having said that, it pains me to see any mother (especially one as conscientious and loving as I know Jane is) embrace the title “Bad Mother,” even if it is to thumb a nose at the harsh judgments of the robotic “Good Mothers.”

Maybe part of the problem here is that too many “Good Mothers” set arbitrary mothering rules and then spend their time sorting mothers into groups, the way you’d sort dimes from pennies. Ignoring these sorters is pretty hard, and I can certainly see how crying out, “Enough! Stick me in the ‘Bad Mother’ group” would be oh-so-liberating.

And maybe another part of the problem is how we think of the word “good.” “Good” things only seem to exist in comparison. A “good” cake, for example, only exists when we compare it to other less-tasty cakes. We deem a child “good” only after comparing her to other children. But do we have to use “good” competitively? Can’t a mother be good for her children, regardless of what other mothers are doing?

It’s funny. “Bad Fathers,” I think, are men who suffer from strained (or non-existent) relationships with their children. “Bad Mothers,” it seems, are women who suffer from strained relationships with other women.

]]> By: Memarie Lane http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41255 Memarie Lane Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:15:20 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41255 I wanted to add, I was at the homeschool co-op the other day and we were talking about getting the kids to do housework. I interjected and said, "what about husbands? how do you get your husbands to help out around the house?" Because Brad won't do ANYTHING, not even take out the trash or heat his own food in the microwave. I'm sure most husbands will at least do that. And one of the women started going off about how the men work all day and shouldn't have to do anything, etc. etc. I about exploded, because I don't see why I should be expected to work 24 hours a day with no break whatsoever, and do it gladly. Brad works and then gets to rest. It's hard enough to shoulder all the work I'm expected to do without someone telling me, without fully understanding the situation, that I ought to just put my nose to the grindstone and shut up. I wanted to add, I was at the homeschool co-op the other day and we were talking about getting the kids to do housework. I interjected and said, “what about husbands? how do you get your husbands to help out around the house?” Because Brad won’t do ANYTHING, not even take out the trash or heat his own food in the microwave. I’m sure most husbands will at least do that. And one of the women started going off about how the men work all day and shouldn’t have to do anything, etc. etc. I about exploded, because I don’t see why I should be expected to work 24 hours a day with no break whatsoever, and do it gladly. Brad works and then gets to rest. It’s hard enough to shoulder all the work I’m expected to do without someone telling me, without fully understanding the situation, that I ought to just put my nose to the grindstone and shut up.

]]> By: Deanna http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41253 Deanna Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:15:45 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41253 I still remember a homeschooling "friend" flat-out asking me why I was "too selfish" to homeschool my children. Did I feel judged? You bet. Did I feel secretly giddy when I learned that the same woman enrolled all of her kids in public school a couple of years later, so she could "work on some of her own projects"? Oh, yeah. I still remember a homeschooling “friend” flat-out asking me why I was “too selfish” to homeschool my children.

Did I feel judged? You bet.

Did I feel secretly giddy when I learned that the same woman enrolled all of her kids in public school a couple of years later, so she could “work on some of her own projects”? Oh, yeah.

]]> By: Sharla http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41246 Sharla Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:34:39 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41246 I love that quote by Lewis. I have faced that kind of criticism over and over. The loving kind. Mostly from my mother-in-law but also from my Mom, all my siblings, friends (who are no longer friends), strangers, etc. I think I've faced that kind of criticism you are talking about. When I was dealing with depression my mother-in-law did not show any concern for me. No, she was concerned for my sweet little children and dear king wonderful husband. What if I were to hurt them? That would just break her heart. (And I don't just mean emotionally, she was concerned that I would hurt them physically). Anyway, I've had to turn the other cheek, and yes, I've had to justify myself for things I have and mostly haven't done. But through it all...I'm still going to keep the title of good mother. The people who matter most to me think I am. You know, my man and The Man. And that's good enough for me. And if I were to claim any other such thing, I'm pretty sure I couldn't make my way out of the wreckage. I love that quote by Lewis. I have faced that kind of criticism over and over. The loving kind. Mostly from my mother-in-law but also from my Mom, all my siblings, friends (who are no longer friends), strangers, etc. I think I’ve faced that kind of criticism you are talking about. When I was dealing with depression my mother-in-law did not show any concern for me. No, she was concerned for my sweet little children and dear king wonderful husband. What if I were to hurt them? That would just break her heart. (And I don’t just mean emotionally, she was concerned that I would hurt them physically).
Anyway, I’ve had to turn the other cheek, and yes, I’ve had to justify myself for things I have and mostly haven’t done. But through it all…I’m still going to keep the title of good mother. The people who matter most to me think I am. You know, my man and The Man. And that’s good enough for me.
And if I were to claim any other such thing, I’m pretty sure I couldn’t make my way out of the wreckage.

]]> By: Memarie Lane http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41243 Memarie Lane Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:15:29 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41243 I haven't, I will look for it. I think most people need to recognize that homeschooling is a grueling, difficult endeavor and definitely not something that everyone should do, unless they're looking for a prolonged vacation at a mental institution. I was at the homeschool co-op on Tuesday and we were joking around about what it would be like to have the whole day to ourselves with the kids in school, but at the same time agreed that we simply can't entrust our kids' minds to the public system. But never did anyone suggest that those who do are inferior in any way, it's as personal a choice as anything. I haven’t, I will look for it. I think most people need to recognize that homeschooling is a grueling, difficult endeavor and definitely not something that everyone should do, unless they’re looking for a prolonged vacation at a mental institution. I was at the homeschool co-op on Tuesday and we were joking around about what it would be like to have the whole day to ourselves with the kids in school, but at the same time agreed that we simply can’t entrust our kids’ minds to the public system. But never did anyone suggest that those who do are inferior in any way, it’s as personal a choice as anything.

]]> By: Jane http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41242 Jane Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:08:44 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41242 Oh, and that makes me wonder how my husband describes me to others. (I probably sound like Kate Gosselin -- before her husband turned out to be such a jerk.) Oh, and that makes me wonder how my husband describes me to others. (I probably sound like Kate Gosselin — before her husband turned out to be such a jerk.)

]]> By: Jane http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41240 Jane Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:07:21 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41240 It's not all homeschoolers (or even many -- but I have a real problem with someone telling me I "should" homeschool, because if not my kids will be compliant instead of curious and basically big fat losers.) Do you read Mrs. G? She posted on Pioneer Woman yesterday about the socialization question, and I think that should settle it once-and-for-all. I greatly admire homeschoolers, and if I were a different sort of person (or if my kids need(ed) it) I definitely would, but if I ever did, I'll try hard not to sound too superior about it :P) http://thepioneerwoman.com/homeschooling/2009/09/the-oldest-one-in-the-book/ I was also recommended by someone else The Call to Brilliance book, and want to read it. Have you? It’s not all homeschoolers (or even many — but I have a real problem with someone telling me I “should” homeschool, because if not my kids will be compliant instead of curious and basically big fat losers.)

Do you read Mrs. G? She posted on Pioneer Woman yesterday about the socialization question, and I think that should settle it once-and-for-all. I greatly admire homeschoolers, and if I were a different sort of person (or if my kids need(ed) it) I definitely would, but if I ever did, I’ll try hard not to sound too superior about it :P )

http://thepioneerwoman.com/homeschooling/2009/09/the-oldest-one-in-the-book/

I was also recommended by someone else The Call to Brilliance book, and want to read it. Have you?

]]> By: Memarie Lane http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41238 Memarie Lane Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:40:50 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41238 To me it's funny that you feel judged by the homeschoolers, because we homeschoolers are on constant attack from judgmental people that want to see our credentials and quiz our kids to make sure we're not slacking. Maybe that's why some homeschoolers come across as judgmental, because we're in fact on our guard, bracing ourselves for the usual "but what about socialization?" questions and such. But anyway I think women in general are just so overburdened by our own expectations and those of others. For me the worst culprit is my husband. The way he describes me to people, they're shocked when they actually meet me because they expected some cowering mail-order bride. To me it’s funny that you feel judged by the homeschoolers, because we homeschoolers are on constant attack from judgmental people that want to see our credentials and quiz our kids to make sure we’re not slacking. Maybe that’s why some homeschoolers come across as judgmental, because we’re in fact on our guard, bracing ourselves for the usual “but what about socialization?” questions and such.

But anyway I think women in general are just so overburdened by our own expectations and those of others. For me the worst culprit is my husband. The way he describes me to people, they’re shocked when they actually meet me because they expected some cowering mail-order bride.

]]> By: Jane http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41237 Jane Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:34:32 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41237 I like to think I'm not so sensitive or easily swayed as to have rethought my entire philosophy over a single moment's experience (it was an entire, relentless week. And the only adjective strong enough is "sanctimonious" -- is there any more terrible indictment I could pronounce?). I like to think I’m not so sensitive or easily swayed as to have rethought my entire philosophy over a single moment’s experience (it was an entire, relentless week. And the only adjective strong enough is “sanctimonious” — is there any more terrible indictment I could pronounce?).

]]> By: steff http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41231 steff Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:09:52 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41231 yep our questions follow those lines too Marianne...but on bleeding I include to death, because somehow or another both of my older boys react like a spot of blood is a flood..... Steff yep our questions follow those lines too Marianne…but on bleeding I include to death, because somehow or another both of my older boys react like a spot of blood is a flood…..
Steff

]]> By: steff http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41230 steff Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:08:10 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41230 LMBO...He was born in Johnson at the womens center...I figured if i had to drive to siloam i might as well go on all the way in to the really good(read spa like) womens center.... But Siloam is the nearest town to us. Steff LMBO…He was born in Johnson at the womens center…I figured if i had to drive to siloam i might as well go on all the way in to the really good(read spa like) womens center….
But Siloam is the nearest town to us.

Steff

]]> By: Marianne http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41224 Marianne Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:15:41 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41224 Sorry you went through that kind of moment. It is true, as C.S. Lewis so eloquently states, that there is a type of tyranny beneath moral superiority. Good mom, bad mom, whatever - I'm sure people have looked in at my parenting moments and judged me as both. But that judgement is usually in the eyes of strangers, not someone with whom I feel like I can be unguarded and real. I like the idea of submarine parents! LOL! One of my stock phrases with my kids when they interrupt (as kids do) is, "Are you bleeding? Is something on fire? Do you have a bone sticking out?" I'm guessing I qualify for sub-mom status! Hang in there, girl! Sorry you went through that kind of moment. It is true, as C.S. Lewis so eloquently states, that there is a type of tyranny beneath moral superiority.

Good mom, bad mom, whatever – I’m sure people have looked in at my parenting moments and judged me as both. But that judgement is usually in the eyes of strangers, not someone with whom I feel like I can be unguarded and real.

I like the idea of submarine parents! LOL! One of my stock phrases with my kids when they interrupt (as kids do) is, “Are you bleeding? Is something on fire? Do you have a bone sticking out?” I’m guessing I qualify for sub-mom status!

Hang in there, girl!

]]> By: Charlotte http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41219 Charlotte Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:56:30 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41219 As long as it wasn't in Siloam Springs, that would just be too weird. As long as it wasn’t in Siloam Springs, that would just be too weird.

]]> By: Steph http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41206 Steph Thu, 17 Sep 2009 06:32:27 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41206 I find myself giving unsolicited advice quite often. I need to tell myself to shut the hell up. Because I do realize that what worked for me won't always work for another person. And lets get real... I sent my kids to school in Spongebob boxers last week and he wouldn't change in gym class. Should anyone really want my advice? LOL I find myself giving unsolicited advice quite often. I need to tell myself to shut the hell up. Because I do realize that what worked for me won’t always work for another person.

And lets get real… I sent my kids to school in Spongebob boxers last week and he wouldn’t change in gym class. Should anyone really want my advice? LOL

]]> By: steff http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41198 steff Thu, 17 Sep 2009 04:00:00 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41198 "OMG love the article about the sub parents. That is it exactly...i hover below the surface ready for an emergency but it better be an emergency. How funny is that I live in OK about 10 miles from the AR border. my youngest was born in AR because it was closer to the hospital there. Steff “OMG love the article about the sub parents. That is it exactly…i hover below the surface ready for an emergency but it better be an emergency.

How funny is that I live in OK about 10 miles from the AR border. my youngest was born in AR because it was closer to the hospital there.
Steff

]]> By: steff http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41196 steff Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:56:05 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41196 You know I have decided the dumb high schoolers is a direct result of the helicopter parent thing. I love my best friend to death and in most aspects of motherhood we are the same, but for schoolwork. She cannot bear the thought of her kids not getting straight A's and doesnt want to wait for them to do the work themselves the way she thinks it should be done....so she does it for them, and I dont mean she checks it I mean if they have a speech she writes it, if they have a test she studies for it, if they have a science project she puts it together. They are having trouble with basic algebra concepts(which I excel at...and offered to tutor them in)she refused because I refused to teach her and let her teach them. She does their 4H cooking, and speechwriting, and all social studies papers. I told her that was awesome, but I passed the 5th grade 25 years ago and fully do not intend to take it over again myself. I have other friends that agree it is their responsibility to write the papers, speeches, etc so their child can win the blue ribbons and accolades. I figure my child will be that much prouder of such an accomplishment if it is their accomplishment, not mine. S You know I have decided the dumb high schoolers is a direct result of the helicopter parent thing. I love my best friend to death and in most aspects of motherhood we are the same, but for schoolwork. She cannot bear the thought of her kids not getting straight A’s and doesnt want to wait for them to do the work themselves the way she thinks it should be done….so she does it for them, and I dont mean she checks it I mean if they have a speech she writes it, if they have a test she studies for it, if they have a science project she puts it together. They are having trouble with basic algebra concepts(which I excel at…and offered to tutor them in)she refused because I refused to teach her and let her teach them.
She does their 4H cooking, and speechwriting, and all social studies papers.
I told her that was awesome, but I passed the 5th grade 25 years ago and fully do not intend to take it over again myself.
I have other friends that agree it is their responsibility to write the papers, speeches, etc so their child can win the blue ribbons and accolades. I figure my child will be that much prouder of such an accomplishment if it is their accomplishment, not mine.
S

]]> By: Charlotte http://www.seagullfountain.com/2009/09/16/with-apologies-to-bad-mothers-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-41192 Charlotte Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:30:35 +0000 http://www.seagullfountain.com/?p=3910#comment-41192 I was born in AK about 5 minutes from the OK border, but probably not coming back anytime soon. If you roll your eyes about helicopter parents, you might enjoy this article I read a couple months ago about being a submarine parent: http://blog.seattlepi.com/parentingwithpizazz/archives/140872.asp I was born in AK about 5 minutes from the OK border, but probably not coming back anytime soon.

If you roll your eyes about helicopter parents, you might enjoy this article I read a couple months ago about being a submarine parent: http://blog.seattlepi.com/parentingwithpizazz/archives/140872.asp

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