A few months ago, I was feeling angry, resentful, and poor. I was angry (with myself and the housing market) that my family lives in a dangerous neighborhood. I was resentful of some friends and relatives and many other welfare program recipients in our country who were or had been on Medicaid, WIC and/or foodstamps and yet live(d) in nice(r) neighborhoods and/or houses than me. I was feeling poor because of credit card debt (for things like fence panels to fix those broken by criminals, and a digital camera to replace what was stolen), school loan debt, and the pressure of raising three kids on a one-income budget.
I know that I have much more material wealth than most people on earth. I’ve seen real poverty, and I’ve seen poor people who are happy, family-oriented, and not covetous. I also know that I don’t contribute enough in taxes to pay for my share of the roads, military protection, public schools, and other infrastructure and social programs of the United States that I take for granted. And I know that many of my friends and relatives will probably contribute, over time, much more back to society in taxes than I will and more than they ever receive(d) in assistance.
I still felt angry, resentful, and poor. Also, I was curious: how easy is it to get welfare? What does the process entail? What would it feel like? And, a few friends of mine encouraged me to check out WIC. It is so easy, they said. Why not? they said. I work hard and pay tithing and am not extravagant. Why not? I thought.
Another rationale for seeking welfare is an immoral and biased clause in the U.S. tax code, which provides financial incentive to parents to pay a third party to care for their children (see Dependent Care Tax Credit) while providing no equivalent tax break for stay-at-home mothers (if I’m mistaken on this, please let me know–I’ve got an amended tax return to file!). So, not only do I not earn money for the work I do, but, even if my husband and I were to fix this within our family by having him pay me a salary for everything I do for his children, he could not deduct those expenses from his income tax as a single father could deduct those monies paid to a nanny or daycare center.
Moral dilemma: If the income tax and welfare systems are corrupt, does that justify my getting whatever I can out of the latter?
One day I snapped. I dropped #1 off at school and took #2 & #3 to the WIC office with me. I filled out the necessary paperwork, which included questions like, “Do you or your children go to bed hungry?” “Do you worry where your next meal is coming from?” I answered these questions honestly. The only answer I gave that could have remotely given them the idea that I truly needed intervention was “it is often cheaper to buy unhealthy food rather than nutritious food.”
There was an interview with a nutritionist who was glad I was breastfeeding, but would have blithely given me formula if I’d wanted it. I should come back next month, they said, to prove my relationship to the kids and my income. In the meantime, I walked out with checks for a month’s worth of milk, eggs, cereal, peanut butter, tuna, carrots, and beans.
That night at dinner I told Dick what I had done. He was not happy. Neither was I. I carried those checks in my bag for a couple of weeks, planning which brands and quantities of the foods I would buy in which combination. I carried the checks into Publix and Walmart with me. I looked at the WIC stickers on the food cases. I thought about handing those goods and my checks over to the clerks. I bought other things, and walked out with the checks still in my bag.
My religious beliefs indicate that if, after all I can do, I cannot provide for myself and my family, I may turn to my extended family and to my church for temporary assistance. A few months ago, I didn’t ask my parents and siblings and in-laws for help, and I didn’t ask my church leaders for help, because I couldn’t see myself saying, “Yes, I have done all I can to provide for myself and my family.” That was not true, for me, at that time. When or if it ever is true, I will not hesitate to ask for help. In the meantime, those WIC checks remain at the bottom of my sock drawer. How could I ask perfect strangers to help me when I cannot ask those I love?
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I went on WIC while I was pregnant with Max. My husband couldn’t find work, and i was only making $8 an hour. I have worked with nutritionists in the past, and after my interview with the WIC nutritionist I was given the impression that they didn’t know what they were talking about (she told me the onions on my pizza the night before counted as vegetables, amongst other things). But the things WIC provided were not things I would normally use at all, so it didn’t really shave anything off my grocery bill. So instead, I learned how to shop more creatively. During the holidays I make extra money by making and selling pumpkin rolls, and now I just signe dup to sell Avon. I think there is always something that can be done, it just takes some creativity and elbow grease.
My family definitely qualifies for every kind of aid that’s out there. The only one we accept is Brad’s VA medical benefits. We have found that there is always a way to make things work for us without the assistance. We share one used car, we don’t use credit cards, we shop creatively, we don’t buy things on whims, not even if it’s a soda at the cash register. There have been times that I have had not a single dime in my pocket, but I have always pulled through.
Shannon, my parents had to use WIC and foodstamps for awhile when I was growing up. Back then they didn’t have cool little cards that looked like debit cards. Instead, they had coupons. So, when you used them, everyone could see. We lived in a tiny town and everyone knew everything about everybody so my parents shopped in a different town so that we wouldn’t be teased at school. I personally don’t think they should feel embarrassed because they taught us how to work hard–we all had jobs from the time we were little (babysitting, paper routes, etc.). They always paid their tithing on anything they made and they taught us how to live within our means.
I have made a lot of judgments in the past about people who have assistance and live nicer than us. I have a lot of friends here who don’t have an income (students) and they live way, way better than us. It is easy to be jealous. I had a huge fight with my brother this summer because I was jealous that he and his wife lived so much better than us and had assistance. I had to come to the conclusion that it wasn’t my business how they spent the money they earned. I knew that Mike and I were working hard and saving and I felt good about it. That’s what mattered.
Mike and I miss qualifying for WIC by about $20 but when we were looking into it we really felt conflicted. We don’t have cable, we don’t have nice cars, we don’t have any new furniture (or matching furniture), we don’t buy new clothes, etc. We do however, save quite a bit of our money and therefore, felt like it would be dishonest for us to use WIC. I guess my philosophy is that it’s ok to use assistance if you need it but I think it’s really important to evaluate you spending habits and be honest about what your needs/wants are.
You are right that you are supposed to first go to your immediate family for help. Mike and I were also confronted with this problem when we were first married. We knew that my brother was getting help for his mission from the church because my parents couldn’t help him. We also knew that we had a little extra money and weren’t helping him. For us, the decision was a hard one but we used that money to help him with his mission. Since that time we have been so blessed by Heavenly Father in our finances. I don’t say this so anyone will think, “What good people,” but rather to show that when we sacrifice the things we want and need, Heavenly Father will bless us.
People always talk about the financial blessings that come from tithing but I think sometimes they miss the point. The blessings of tithing don’t really come from a mysterious check that comes in the mail just when we need it. I think the real blessings come from just being obedient and showing the Lord that we will follow his commandment. For my family, the blessings came not by my dad getting some great job that would support us, but the knowledge that God was taking care of us. We didn’t have nice clothes or a nice house but we never went hungry. Sometimes there wasn’t a lot of food by Heavenly Father blessed my mom with inspiration to know how to make a great dinner when it looked like we had no food. I think those are the real blessings. And I think you will be blessed for being obedient and working hard, paying your tithing, paying a fast offering, etc.
This is a novel…sorry.
Wow, great post Shannon – and 2 great comments so far. Things like this really make me think and reevaluate my life and spending/saving habits. I am very glad to live in a country where they have assistance like WIC and food stamps for those who need them, and I know there are lots of people who really do. I have been in a few dire straits before and without the assistance of family, certainly would have been turning to these systems. Thank goodness for us it was very short term. (And we have generous parents.) It’s easy for me to be materialistic when I see how much some friends and family members have – but I am glad to be reminded just how lucky I am. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like I make any sacrifices at all – and I should be sacrificing more to save for the future and to help others around me. I am impressed with those like Adrianne, who are blessed with the chance to make small sacrifices to help family members. Aaron and I need to go over our own budget and spending to find some areas where we can do the same. Several family members come to mind who could use some help. Thanks for the comments everyone.
Very interesting post for me to read right now. I was just filling out a job application to become a WIC nutritionist. (i”m sure some of them know what they are talking about) since getting my degree i’ve debated on whether or not i should go to work and use it. I could get a different job that would pay a lot more money than what my husband is earning, but then i would have to put my son in day care- which i won’t do. so i figured i’d do a job like this- very part-time, doesn’t pay all that well, but at least it would be some extra income to help pay the bills that we are struggling with. BUT at the same time, i don’t know that i agree with the system. When I was pregnant with jared we considered medacaid because our insurance had a huge deductible. but we made just enough money to not qualify. i was too embarressed to and too prideful to ask family for help. so, now we are still paying that high deductible. my husband always reminds me that we are supposed to ask family first- and that is the HARDEST thing for me to do. i just recently agreed to getting a consolidation loan from his mom- and of course, it has helped immensely. i just don’t know if i can justify working for a program i’m too prideful to use, and don’t know if it is really right.
BTW I agree about the cost of eating healthy. When I was a kid it was the opposite. I was always embarrased that my sandwiches were on whole wheat bread and that my snack was a banana or carrots, while my friends got white wonder bread and candy. But my parents couldn’t afford that stuff. Now it’s the other way around!
enjoying the comments!
one point i wanted to make: it IS hard to ask family and church for help. and i think it’s supposed to be, so that we really examine our needs/wants before we do ask. with family, there is more accountability — they will know what we do with the money, and there is more immediacy and intimacy; if they sacrifice to help us, we will see their sacrifice, and be a lot more careful about how we use the assistance.
with the church, there is again the accountability — we are telling God we need help, and there is also the knowing that if/when we take money or food, we are taking it from some other extremely worthy cause.
whereas with the government, it is easy for me to think to myself, “certainly i am just as (or more) worthy of assistance as these bozos in my neighborhood.” and less accountability — the government does not know how i will spend the money (or how i will spend the money i would have had to spend on those groceries).
if we honestly need help, we shouldn’t be embarrassed to ask for help as the Lord directs. just as we shouldn’t be grudging in offering our help as the Lord directs.
Suzie–i love your comment; you are awesomely thoughtful and purposeful about how you live your life! but i’m bothered by your use of the word “prideful” in not using WIC. that would imply that all it takes is humility to use WIC. and humility is obviously a good thing. in my mind, it is a striving (i am not there yet!!) for self-sufficiency, rather than pride, that keeps me from doing WIC.
Suzie- I think many of the people who are on WIC really need the help of a good nutritionist. A lot of people simply don’t know how to eat healthfully. WIC isn’t just about giving free food, it’s about education. In order to qualify for WIC, I had to agree to take nutrition classes. I never did, but I looked at the list and there seemed to be a lot of good information being made available. If you could help people learn how to eat better and more affordably, I think you’d be doing a lot of good!
Your blog is really about exploring issues, Shannon! I enjoy the different viewpoints and the education I’m receiving from all you wonderful women (some whom I’ve never met).
When I read Shannon’s post this morning I immediately copied it in an email to my mother-in-law, sisters-in-law and husband and opened a discussion with them about if we as a family should be pitching in to help with my teenage sister-in-law’s medical bills instead of her, her husband, and her baby boy being on Medicaid (she was pregnant as a 17-year-old junior in high school). I’m interested in what they say, and I think we would really enjoy the benefits of helping out a family member in this way. I’m talking about the benefits of becoming closer as a family and being able to trust each other and it being a little easier to ask for help when we need it.
I just got home and saw Adrianne’s comment and, Adrianne, I’m so glad you helped your brother! I think that is very commendable and exactly what we should be doing.
From Tom’s comment on the empathy post, I’d like to say that no, we probably aren’t expected to all live like hermits and give every worldly good to people in other countries, but it’s my theory (and part of scripture, eh?) that as we do give we reap real blessings of growing closer to God. The more we give and the more we sacrifice for others, the happier we really will be. It’s up to us to decide how happy we want to be??? It’s hard to shake off the natural man, though. Most days I think my nice minivan makes me pretty happy…
I do not agree that getting govermnet welfare is against our religion (we’re LDS too). in fact, church members are encouraged to apply for goverment assistance if they qualify. maybe about 25 percent of our ward recieves goverment welfare because we are med school students’ wives. We do not support our husbands in med school. we stay at home with our children.
it is also not correct that govermnet does not help stay at home moms. my husband does not qualify for food stamps because he does not work. a man must work at least some to qualify. stay at home moms are considered workers, so they and their children qualify for medicaid and food stamps.
a lot of mormons are against welfare on political grounds , meaning they are right wing republicans or libretarians. they confuse their political views with their faith. no where in the church handbook does it say that we should not apply for govermnet assistance.
in fact most of those self proclaimed right wing republicans and libratarians apply for state assistance when they are in real need. that has happened many times in our family, shannon, you just may not know about it, because they are embarassed.
i for one am glad that i live in a country where people do not have to go hungry and where we can free medicaid when we are truly poor. i am very happy to be a stay at home mom on goverment assistance, and I will be happy in the future to pay taxes and contribute so that others will have that opportunity as well.
if you want to live in a stricly capitalist society , you may want to move to india with all the disease and beggars and starving children. in our rich county we provide such things as public health, public education, and food for women and children. and i am proud of my country for it.
sylwia
also shannon
being in the relief sociey presidency i know first hand that the church encourages and even helps people apply for government assistance. so it can not be against our religion as you have been told…………
Sylwia,
the only thing i said about church beliefs was a reference to the following quote:
you can click on the hyperlink in my post to see the rest of this factsheet from providentliving.org.
if you are aware of a different church publication with a different teaching, please share it with me.
also, i do not think i am confused in believing my religious beliefs first and all other beliefs second.
Shannon
Shannon- I have this mentality that I am just too good for WIC or really any assistance. “Asking for help shows a sign of weakness.” while I know that is NOT a true statement, that is how I was raised- having to do it all on my own (and with the help of the lord of course) and this mentality is one thing that I have had to work soooo hard on overcoming throughout my life- not quite there yet. I consider it pride because it is meant to be a good program and there a many good people who need it and use it properly, i’m just an arrogant @&*! and won’t accept what is graciously offered. that would be the only thing stopping me from accepting- me feeling better than someone else. It’s a terrible thing. I know. so, no, it does not JUST take humility to accept WIC, but when you have been told your whole life that people that accept governemnt aid are a certain stereotype (i won’t go into detail on that stereotype because it’s just that- a stereotype) it would take a lot of humility for me to be able to accept it. At this point in my life if i were to be on WIC I probably wouldn’t tell my family that I was using it- just because I would be embaressed and afraid of what they would think. and to me, that is being prideful.
Suzie–of course i see what you mean. good point. Shannon
Sylwia,
you make me curious to discover our church’s position on this, which I hadn’t really researched before. here’s an excerpt from a talk Pres. Benson gave in 1977:
this can be found here.
Hey Shannon, I hope that I was not one of the people that you were resenting a few months ago because I am on public assistance. You know that I agree with your religious beliefs (obviously?we go to church together), but I do not believe in your interpretation of them.
I totally agree that when we need help, we should go to our families first and then maybe to the church if it is a temporary need that is appropriate to ask for. I do not feel that it is the church?s responsibility to sustain us over a long period of time, nor would I feel ok with taking money away from the church. According to my husband and his church manual (from the Elders Quorum Presidency book) the purpose of the church welfare system is to help people learn how to become self-sufficient and sustain themselves. It is not to alienate ourselves from our government and not take other options available to us to help us. Not once in the handbook did it say anything about not participating in food-stamps, WIC, or public assistance or that they are inappropriate for church members. So I was confused because of your posting, so I called my sister, who was on welfare while her husband was in dental school, and my dad, who has been in many bishoprics, stake presidency, and on the high counsel in our church for many, many years, to get their opinions. My dad said that the church handbooks used to have information on public assistance, telling members to not do it. But he said that it is not the same anymore, they do not say anything about it and feel it is a personal choice. He told me that it was between me and the Lord and if I felt that it was ok, than it is. For me Shannon, it is ok. I am not going to miss out on any blessings nor do I feel like I am sinning because I am getting help from the WIC and Food-stamp offices.
I know that applying for WIC and food-stamps was the right thing to do and the answer to my prayers so that I could adopt my son, and stay home with him while Ryan is in school. This too is a cause that you truly support is staying at home…right? So what is worse, being on public assistance or putting your child in daycare so you can buy him formula? I didn?t have the option of nursing.
We moved to Florida in August 2006 with plans of becoming full-time students; for me it was nursing school, and Ryan, aviation school. We had saved everything over the past year and planned to live off of our savings and work as many jobs as we needed to get by. Our goal was to better ourselves so that we could provide for ourselves and our children in the future. We had no plans to use government assistance as we would have been able to provide for ourselves. A few weeks after we moved here, we were given the opportunity to adopt our son. It was a miracle, meant to be, and was the largest blessing that I had ever received. But with our tight budget already, how were we supposed to take care of a baby without much money and not without me being able to work full-time so I could stay at home with Liam? My family had shelled out everything they had between my parents, grandparents and siblings helping us pay our $15,000 legal and adoption fees so that we could adopt Liam and they could not support us for the next 14 months. So our family could not assist us any longer, so as your posting stated, I should have gone to the bishop and asked him to feed our family for 14-months until Ryan was out of school. We obviously cannot do anymore ourselves. Ryan goes to school from 7am-3pm, he then works from 3:30pm to 9:30pm, 5+ days a week. I work from home managing my father?s appraisal company a few hours a day, attend school full time working on my degree in psychology, I pride myself in being a stay at home mom and taking care of him, and I rarely see my husband. We moved out of our nice apartment with central air to a house with a small a/c unit as our sole source of cool air for this summer, saving us $400/month. And I would totally go on with what we have done to cut costs, but I do not feel that I need to justify myself anymore being on welfare assistance.
I feel that it is alright if people accept help that need it from WIC, food-stamps, and so on. We do not take advantage of it or lie about our income, and we meet into the income requirements. We feel that this is our way right now to meet our family?s needs and we truly appreciate it and do things to show God that we appreciate it; we buy the missionaries in our ward groceries, have brought them grocery shopping with us to help them, and we have them over for dinner as our way of showing God that we appreciate the help the food stamps provide us. I just don?t believe that help is only supposed to come from church welfare. It can come from food-stamps and WIC also.
Anyway, I had encouraged you to apply for WIC because if you qualified, and it took stress off of you and Tom, maybe it would help you guys out. Sorry for causing you to go through a moral dilemma. I know that I have not lessened my morals, nor compromised my religious beliefs by being on welfare and I feel that I am self-sufficient. My husband and I are 2 full time students, working as hard as we can to get by, raising a baby, and taking care of ourselves. We get around $500/month in free food, and Medicaid for Liam, and we really appreciate it and do not feel guilty for taking part in it. We feel like it is a blessing from God and we feel like we should be using this resource so we do not have to take money from the church. This is money that is not coming out of the church funds, and I would rather take assistance from the government than take away from the good causes the church puts its money too.
Danielle,
i value our friendship and i honor you for being a good mother and a good friend. i know you and your husband are hard workers at home, at school, at work, and at church.
and, most important, you are right to say that you do not have to justify anything you do to me. my intention was to share my story in a way that would reflect my own feelings.
i hope i have not offended you in coming to a different conclusion (interpretation) about what is right, in principle, for my family.
one question:
you say, “I would rather take assistance from the government than take away from the good causes the church puts its money too.”
in your comment, you prove quite profoundly that you and your family are a “good cause.” why then do you hesitate to take from the church?
Shannon
I don’t think pres Benson’s 1977 article is current anymore. there are still principles that apply but as far as I know accepting government welfare is not against the princilples of the church today. it may have been in 1977, but it’s 2007 now.
As for me, I love government assistance………let me count the ways:
615 dollar per month in food stamps
WIC, 100 dollars per month in food, plus 9 cans of formula,
WIC also gives checks to be used at the local farmers markets to buy fresh iowa fruits and veggies during spring summer and fall
Medicaid= 2 c-sections, one ear tube surgery, 3 life threatning ER visits, 1 life threating hospitalization, regular doctors checkups, and free prescription drugs
free school lunch, free school supplies and backpacks
free summer camps, free preeschool for two years, free YMCA membership for the first two years, now 50 percent off YMCA membership
either free or 50 percent off swim, soccer, karate, gymnastics,(ect) lessons for my kids
free lunch in the summer for all kids in our city(low income not required)
free speech therapy for my third son
200 dollars toward our heating bill every winter
our city sells a 200 dollar swimming pool pass (to 3 water parks)to low income residents for 10 per year
also most med students lived in free housing, but we wanted a place with a washer and dryer and central ac , so we took loans out and paid for our own housing
Thanks to all of the goverment assistance I got to stay home with my 4 kids during 4 years of med school. i was happy and content as were my children. the were not left behind and got to experience many activities and always ate fresh healthy food. they are the smartest kids in their classes and are well balanced socially and well behaved.
i would not have done the last four years differently, and i encourage others to participate in these programs to better their children’s lives.
of course being on assistance is not always fun. there is rude people and long lines and lots of paperwork. some people may even be embarassed. but hey, to be a stay at home mom while my husband is in med school, should require some inconvenience to myslef. so i went to all my appointments and waited in long lines sometimes surrounded by very scary people. that was my contribution to this med school thing.
in the church we are encouraged to marry young and not put off having children and to get all of the education that we can and to stay at home with our children. all that can be very tricky and nearly impossible without govermnet assistance. not all of us have rich parents to help us, and the church does not help people for four years at a time. that’s what our goverment is for. and rest assured shannon, the first year or two that my husband works as a civillian, he will pay off all the help we got during these four years, by paying his taxes.
sylwia
I have to admit that when I first read your posting, I was totally offended. It wasn’t just the topic that offended me, but the fact that you knew that I am on WIC and food-stamps and that I read your blog often, yet you didn’t take into consideration people (like me) who may become offended by the conclusion in your posting. I just kinda felt like you were aiming it at me, but I totally understand at the same time that you love to write and discuss/argue certain points. So I changed my attitude to “not take offense” like many conference talks say. In defense of your blog, it is a great discussion topic that will get many responses.
I think of you as a good friend too, so if my response is harsh, I apologise, but I think that this is really something that there is not a right or wrong answer to. If you, I, or someone else prays about the decision to go on food stamps, who are we to judge if it is right or wrong in the eyes of the church. As far as my comment that you quoted, I do not feel that I am a cause really. I can get financial assistance in other ways (like foodstamps and WIC) so why take funds from the church that support missions, third-world countries, and so on.
Anyway, I read that article you posted too from President Benson. This was from 1977, it was the next year that our religion changed and allowed African American’s to hold the priesthood. My point is that things change. That is why discouraging welfare was taken out of the church handbooks according to my father. He remembers when it used to be in there.
But overall, like deciding if it is right or wrong to drink caffene, stay at home with our kids, or, breastfeed or bottle feed, it is a personal decision for everyone as to what they feel is right or wrong for them in the eyes of God. I do not feel that the church discourages it any longer like they used to 20 years ago. I agree with sylwia’s statements on this one.
Don’t worry Shannon, we’re still friends, just know that whenever you come over to my house for dinner, you are totally eating food that was bought from food-stamps!
Sylwia,
i agree that it is often very hard to obey all of the commandments, especially when some almost seem to contradict (paradox-icize?) each other (think of adam and eve’s dilemma). i struggle a lot with my weaknesses, and some of my weaknesses i should probably struggle with more.
i think you’re right in saying the church does not (or should not?) help people for four years at a time.
i disagree that that is what government is for.
Shannon
Danielle,
i believe there are right and wrong answers to every question. but, the questions you answer and the questions i answer are different. we are different people with different everything–spouses, kids, incomes, backgrounds, needs, wants, education, philosophies, etc.
i don’t think my post stated a conclusion or judgment about anyone’s questions but my own. did it?
when you ask, “who are we to judge?” i would say that I am I to judge what I do. and in my post i shared how i judged my situation and myself. if you felt that i was judging you in my post, then i sincerely apologize–that certainly was not my intention.
on your other examples, there are right and wrong answers to those questions too. here’s how i judge these for myself (in case you were dying to hear my opinion, since i am so shy about sharing it
):
bottle or breast–breast, if you can.
drinking caffeine–nope (i confess i do, though)
staying at home–yes, if you can.
i hope i am still invited to dinner sometime at your house. you are a great hostess!
Shannon
danielle
i think this topic on shannons blog was actually directed at me because i often allude to partaking of goverment assistance and i’m not even a bit shy about it. in fact i talk about it all the time in order to shock my relatives, which are also shannons relatives. to them something like this is unholy and unthinkable. so i like to stirr the pot and flaunt my goverment dependency.
sylwia
Shannon, thanks for clarifying. I think that by you judging yourself in your blog is what made me think that if your conclusion was that welfare was wrong. I though “if Shannon thinks WIC/foodstamps/medicaid is wrong, she must think that I am wrong for using them”. This is where I interpreted a conclusion when you decided not to use your checks. So, I now realize that you were only judging yourself, thankfully, and enjoyed this debate. Anyway, I totally agree to disagree on this topic and put it to rest. We agree so far on 3/4 issues (breastfeeding, caffiene- I totally drink it too, and staying at home with our kids), so we can afford to disagree on this. And I will totally invite you over again.
Sylwia, thanks for clarifying. I am totally the one that encouraged Shannon to go check out WIC, so I am to blame for that. You shouldn’t have to be shy for being on government assistance, so I am glad you are not. That is what it is there for, although Shannon totally disagree’s. It is not like you are abusing the system like I am sure many of Shannons neighbors are doing, and you and your husband are working towards being self-sufficient fully when your husband is done school. So I say, good for you!
Danielle and Sylwia,
i guess i should be flattered that neither of you thinks that i am self-centered enough to be writing just about myself. if you are interested, please read my post again and see that it is all about me, all the time — i didn’t even name my kids bec. it wasn’t about them.
i did say i was resentful of others (a sin on my part) and i did say that i had friends (more than one) who encouraged me to explore WIC (which shows i have caring friends, but wasn’t meant as a criticism of them — obviously i was curious to explore WIC myself, or this post wouldn’t exist).
also:
1) my post is about something that happened a while (approx. 2 months actually) before i started blogging about “issues.” my actions and thoughts are not directed at anyone. i’m pretty self-absorbed; i’m not thinking about you when i decide what is right for me.
2) you guys are right: Pres. Benson is dead. a lot of things have changed since 1977, including how harshly (or not) the church views govt assistance. and i agree that we should follow our current leaders’ counsel (rather than older leaders). the providentliving.org factsheet i referred to in my original post and quoted in an earlier comment is from 2006. should i use it to help decide my course of action? yes. should i use it to help decide your course of action? no (i shouldn’t be, and am not trying to, decide your course of action).
3) i never said in my post that govt assistance was wrong (for me or others). i said that it would be wrong for me to ask the government (“strangers”) to help me when i’m unwilling or unable to ask my parents and my church for help.
Shannon
oh, darn it Shannon, I was hoping I was egging you on with my refrences to welfare….
i think it’s a topic that needs to be discussed more often and more openly. so many people don’t know it’s ok for church members to use it, so I try to talk about it openly.
many mormons tend to get stuck on incorrect ideas and they claim it’s part of their faith. being republican is one example. believing that people who commit suicide can never be exalted. believing that people who commit murder can not be forgiven. believing that joseph smith said that the telestial kingdon is so beautiful that people would kill themselves to go there if they saw it.
actually joseph smith never said any such thing, and the other statements are untrue as well. but many mormons perpetuate these ideas and claim it’s part of their religion. (am I egging you on yet, shannon? feel free to discuss these topics)
it’s the same case with govermnet welfare. so i try to voice the other side of it, and prove that it’s not part of our faith to either believe or disbelieve in it. and many faithful people live on gov welfare for some time in their life.
sylwia
well, hmmmm. you’ve certainly given me a lot to think about, Sylwia.
may i just say that i think you’re totally whacked?
but in a good way.
one question — since you have given me a lot to think about, have i given you anything to think about? i wouldn’t want our relationship to be completely one-sided…
sure shannon, you have given me things to think about. i especially appreciated the 1977 quote from pres benson because i always wondered where this anti welfare idea in the church came from. now I know. it was a very direct and clear explanation from the prophet, so now I can give the older ultra conservative folks a break and not harp on them so much.
let me let you in on a secret. i have very strong volitile loud opinions. but I also change them often as I get more information. often i forget what my former opinion was when i form a new one.
life is all about learning and progressing. i don’t like to hold on to old ideas when i am presented with new better ones.
so keep talking, i may hear something that may change my mind alltogether, but until then you will hear what I believe in now!!!
sylwia
This post reminded me of something – we need to keep paying tithing.
Money, money, money – you can buy anything in this world with money . . . (sarcasm intended)
I spent over an hour this morning with a government employee. She was Asian, spoke broken English, was very fast at adding 7 digit numbers, and she didn’t trust computers. She was an auditor with the state Department of Economic Security. Just a random audit – she told me her job it to audit 8 businesses per week and she gets to pick them, so she picked mine since it looked simple and straight forward. She is paid by the government to MAKE SURE WE ARE GIVING THE GOVERNMENT MONEY. The state government decides how much money we pay into the state unemployment “insurance” fund – I call it a TAX. Guess what? I can NEVER take any of that money out of that fund – you know why? I am a business owner. Make sense? NOT to me it doesn’t. Also, I complained to her about the additional “Job Training Tax” that we have to compute with every paycheck and pay to the state government – again, something they thought up to fund another government program. She let me know it is a VERY small percentage of payroll/employee wages. I said that the amount wasn’t the issue – the time and headache is. Anyways – I can rant and rave about the whole process, but it is what it is. (Why do we have to PAY accountants to compute and report taxes – shouldn’t the government at least do that for us? Also – can I send a BILL for MY time to the state government now that they took up over an hour of MY workday?)
The point of this post, however, is that, unlike the Church, the government is NOT a perfect organization. But it is DAMN (and may lead to damnation if abused like any other good thing (also, what about this combo: damn + nation = damnation?)) good!
Now for the personal story: While I was still in college and Susan had just had our first child (at 29 weeks) we were THRILLED that we had signed up for Medicaid instead of the outrageous and completely unaffordable private maternity coverage. WIC was a part of our lives as soon as we found out that we were pregnant. Were there strange people at WIC when we went the first time? Of course (I remember feeling really awkward as the ONLY man in the entire place -AND I was THE father of an unborn child). This (the fact that we weren’t the typical applicants) felt SO wrong to Susan and I – this assistance should ESPECIALLY be for the young families making CORRECT decisions in life. We told lots of people in Provo about the options – that there was something besides private health insurance and “scraping by” and odd telemarketing jobs and multilevel marketing (another post on this would be great, Shannon).
Anyways – my perspective now is that I do NOT have a choice about funding the government welfare program. I’m working hard and the government taketh away. We have paid and hope to be able to pay MANY TIMES what the government provided us (not what we took nor what the government OWNED in the first place to give to us).
Oh, and Sylwia – in my business we help people who are finished with dental school get jobs or buy practices – and you are doing it EXACTLY right! Keep it up – you and your husband will be supporting many future families through your contributions to society!
Thanks for all of your fun posts, Shannon – I guess this one should’ve gone on my own blog – but I like to keep it light hearted and separate from my stresses in life
Sorry for all of the capitalization – I’m just trying to emphasize via writing what I would be communicating with my voice. I hope this gives another perspective to everyone to help in the personal decision making that is always required.
By the way – we would not hesitate to use the government and church (the bishop’s storehouse here is AWESOME) programs at any times in our lives when it may be needed. The Law of Consecration WILL BE awesome!
First of all, I have to say that I enjoy your blog because it is always interesting. It’s a great forum for discussion and debate. I think it’s great that you are honest and forthright with your opinions, even when I don’t agree with them
I wasn’t going to comment on this, but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to say something. I think I’ve seen this issue up-close-and-personal enough to be able to comment. When Eric and I were newlyweds with a baby on the way, we used both WIC and Medicaid. We felt we were deserving (we were both working; Eric was getting his education; I had already received my degree; we were paying our tithing and taxes, etc.), and even more so when our baby was born 11 weeks before he was due. He ended up being in the hospital for 1 1/2 months, during which he received a variety of expensive tests and treatments. There is NO way we could have paid for this without government help. Our families were not able to help us, but we needed aid so that our tiny baby could get the medical attention he needed. When he finally left the hospital, he required a special (and expensive) formula to help him grow more rapidly. Again, we could not have afforded this without WIC. For the record, I pumped breastmilk (very painfully) until I no longer had any. Medicaid also paid for the RSV shots my preemie received – they were $500 a pop, again an amount we couldn’t pay. I simply couldn’t look down on WIC or Medicaid when my baby was in need. Just another note on WIC employees – they noticed that I wasn’t gaining enough weight during my pregnancy long before my ob/gyn did.
Several months after my son was born, I was diagnosed with diabetes. I didn’t have insurance (too expensive) and I no longer qualfied for Medicaid, but I did take advantage of a program called Lily Cares, which gave free insulin (Humalog costs at least $50 a bottle) to those who couldn’t afford it. Again, without that program, I wouldn’t have gotten the medicine I desperately needed.
My point is, we took help when we needed it. As soon as we were able, we dropped the programs. We have more than made up for what we used in the taxes we, and our families, have paid.
I know that there are plenty of people who abuse these programs, but I believe many of those who use them are truly in need.
I also believe that if you’re not willing to accept help when it is available, you have no right to complain about being poor. So, stop overanalyzing and cash the checks already (and I mean that in the nicest way).
hey, who is Eric? i like him already, but i thought only women (other than Tom and dad Hyatt) read this blog….
sylwia
Eric and Susan–thanks for the other perspectives.
i am extremely willing to accept help from my family and the church, and if and when i ever exhaust those sources and all of my own resources, i will, of course, explore every other option to provide for my family; i would expect every parent to do the same. but, sorry, i don’t think i can ever stop “over” analyzing; i think that’s pretty much hardwired into me.
i do have one question:
why did you (everyone who has shared in comments where you did turn for help) not ask the church for help?
since you (everyone) decided that asking the govt for assistance was right for you, will/would you judge me poorly if i ask the church for assistance second (after family and before government)?
Sylwia, you said in a previous comment that if Shannon wanted to live in a capitalist society she should move to India. I would+ say that perhaps you should live in Norway. My husband went on his mission there. They are a socialist society and everything is paid for. People have no desire to get a job because they can get free housing, food, medical assistance, etc. No president would ever get voted in that had beliefs contrary to a socialist society because why would they want to give up having their lives paid for?
I don’t think I ever read anywhere that Shannon thought you were bad for getting government assistance. I think her point was that it didn’t work for her or her family and that she believed there were different routes to take before asking for government assistance. Some people don’t have that freedom…like was said earlier, some people don’t have parents to go to. The feelings I have against government assistance is that it often creates a sense of dependancy. It should only be used in circumstances where there is no other choice. And perhaps Shannon felt she had another choice.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not against help from the government. If you read my earlier comment you would see that I am grateful for it because it helped my family when we really needed it. I also have a brother with major physical disabilites and he would be dead if he didn’t receive government assistance. From reading some of the comments it seems like there is a belief that we are a wonderful country because we freely take care of our people. I would say that it is wrong to view government assistance that way. Our people are not being freely taken care of. They are being taken care of because other people are expected to willlingly give of their money. We should want to freely give our money to help those that are less fortunate than us but no one should be forced to give their money up. When your husband makes $200,000 a year (I don’t know how much doctors make) I hope you don’t ever complain about the amount of money you are asked to give to the government so that someone else can eat.
I have been gone on vacation and just got back last night, so of course one of the first things I have done this morning was check Shannon’s blog, and I see that I have really missed out. What a great post and there have been a lot of great comments. I will add my two cents worth to the debate.
I am not an advocate of government assistance but before Sylwia thinks I am just a right-wing Republican/libertarian, let me say that I fully support the principle of giving to the poor and needy, a principle which I think is a fundamental principle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The reason why I do not like government assistance is because I think there is a lot of abuse and a lot of waste in the system. I want to stress that I do not judge any of you who have accepted government assistance. If I had been in your situations I think I would have done the same thing, because you had no other choice, and you are doing all you can to support your families. I certainly do not begrudge you any support that my tax dollars may have contributed. That said, I still think that aid to the poor and needy should come through private institutions, such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I agree with Shannon’s point that there is more accountability when it is done that way, and I think a lot more people could be helped than are currently helped with the same amount of money that the government spends every year in welfare. Now that doesn’t mean that I think that every person who accepts government assistance is wasteful or is abusing the system. The Church teaches us to be self-reliant, and encourages us to do all that we can to become self-reliant. That is where government assistance misses the mark. Too many people do not use it as a temporary help until they can become self-reliant, but it is a way of life for them, and they come to develop a sense of entitlement for things which they have not worked for. I do not think this is healthy for anyone. When I lived in DC I volunteered at a homeless shelter in order to tutor children there. I felt terrible for them, and I did what I could to help them, but what they really needed were parents who would teach them to work hard in order to earn what they need in life, and to teach them to strive for self-sufficiency. I can’t help but think that the reason there are so many unwed mothers these days is because you can get by on gov assist and you don’t need to marry before having children. This hurts our society and it especially hurts the children who are brought up in these circumstances.
The question of WIC and Medicaid has been debated at our house. My husband is currently in medical school and I am staying home with our baby girl. We have saved as much money as we could for the past two years and we are using that to help support us through med school along with a ton of school loans. We have decided that for us, we need to exhaust all of our resources before we accept any type of government assistance. I do not feel that it is right for other people (tax payers) to support us so that we can live comfortably while in med school, and then get out of school and make a lot more money than a lot of other people make, who were supporting us while students. This is something that is hard to talk about though because everyone has different situations and they feel judged for what they have chosen to do. I just know that we will take out whatever we have to in student loans, and then we will pay every penny back. Even with student loans though, we still would not be able to afford health insurance without the money we saved up. Some people might not have that option, and I don’t blame them for taking gov assistance if they have to. If it were a perfect world, I think we would pay less taxes and pay more fast offerings in order to help those who need it.
hmmm, one thing i didn’t mention in my post or comments (because i didn’t think of it or it’s import until just now) is that we are not in school right now, and so i can’t say that all of a sudden, in a few years or so, with us keeping on our current track, that our income is going to jump/start. i hope it does increase, obviously. but, this certainly puts a different complexion on my problem/dilemma, and explains further my ultimate decision. and it puts an even greater burden on me to economize and revise my expectations of what my standard of living should be.
In respose to
1. “why did you (everyone who has shared in comments where you did turn for help) not ask the church for help?
2. since you (everyone) decided that asking the govt for assistance was right for you, will/would you judge me poorly if i ask the church for assistance second (after family and before government)?”
1. The BYU married ward was a new experience. I’ve been a financial clerk since then and that really opened my eyes. I had no clue at that point in life that the church even had a financial component to it. Also – our ward didn’t offer health insurance
and the WIC was just another part of the “once your pregnant your wife qualifies for medicaid” type of things. I obviously maintained my own BYU health insurance.
2. Also – restated clearer from my post above – I view some government assistance as family assistance, since my family does pay (required to do so) into the government system. If anyone goes to the church second I applaud them – I think that it is more difficult to do as far as personal pride goes because there isn’t the anonymity of the government assistance – and hopefully it is a better training/learning experience. Again – the Law of Consecration will be awesome if we are spiritually prepared.
Oh – and another question:
How is WIC different from using governement roads, pbs (sesame street, etc), subsidized utilities and transmission lines, other infrastructure, earned income tax credits, etc?
eric
you are a very smart guy. now that i think of it, wic is not any different than the other programs such as utilities that the gov subsidizes. why not subsidize food for poor women and children? you are right it’s not very different at all.
Eric,
thanks for your responses.
1) the church has standards set for how much of a person’s medical expenses they could or would cover, so, they obviously do sometimes pay for medical things.
I do not choose to do things just because they are “another part of …[that] type of things.” that’s not a good enough reason for me.
2) what i find to be better about family and church assistance is not the humbling of pride (though that is good too) but the immediacy, sacrifice, and accountability (as I said in an earlier comment).
in my original post, I admitted that I haven’t paid for my share of these other infrastructure or government programs (yet). there are many differences, but the biggest i can think of right now is that WIC is only for the few: the many pay in, the few benefit. roads, military, schools are for all: the many pay in, all benefit.
not only is WIC for the few, but it is for the exact few who do not pay for it. to take your road example, WIC is like everyone in California paying for all the roads in Texas, while the people in Texas pay for no roads anywhere. (please also see my latest post, Why do we do what we do: expediency or principle?).
perhaps government funding of roads and utilities and PBS (well, i know this is true of PBS and NPR, among other things) is also immoral.
i actually do not know much about earned income tax credit, except i think it is a tax break aimed at motivating people to work rather than languish on welfare (please inform me if i am mistaken). so it is an attempt to fix the welfare problem, right? hmmm, how would that differ from WIC, which is paying people to be on welfare?
“How is WIC different from using governement roads, pbs (sesame street, etc), subsidized utilities and transmission lines, other infrastructure, earned income tax credits, etc?”
Not everyone can get it. Everyone has access to roads and infrastructure. Why isn’t there WIC for men? Men get hungry too, and have families to feed as well.
Try this on for size. When I graduated from high school, I was accepted to the university of my choice, had my roommate, room, and mailbox key, and schedule. This was in California in 1994, before Affirmative Action was abolished. Two weeks before classes started I got a notice that my grants had fallen through because I was the wrong color. It was too late for scholarships, and I couldn’t get loans because my parents had declared bancruptcy. So I applied for government aid. I was tol that women under the age of 26 cannot get financial aid for higher learning unless they are pregnant or have children. How is that fair?
Not every program is accessible to everyone. Should they be? Now there’s a question.
I guess we must all live as we believe is just, and can believe that our Heavenly Father will sort out Judgment in his completely omnipotent view…
thanks for that clarification, Ryan.
i read (and taught) today’s SWK lesson (#11) on Provident Living: Self-Reliance and Preparedness with great interest. President Kimball (and the current church leaders who selected and approved these lessons for 2007) is very clear on what the correct principles are.
we must remember that there are a great many people who do not have either family or church to go to in time of need. in such cases, it can only be appropriate to accept government assistance honestly, as needed, while striving to be self-reliant and to care for our families in the best way available to us, knowing that we will pay that help back later in our taxes (gladly).
and as we strive to follow President Hinckley’s counsel, it is always for us to be kinder and more… what are the be’s?
“Grateful, Smart, Involved, Clean, True, Positive, Humble, Still and Prayerful”
Thanks Shannon, for your reply, you voiced in words what I could not. You also reminded me of the many other situations and dilemmas that people find themselves in. As someone once said, although to be advised with caution, “there is a time and a place for everything…”