I like her column, generally, and liked some aspects of her book, but, man. I feel like I need to go check my privates to make sure they haven’t been replaced by intergender metallic units.
(from her column on “dad lit” Friday)
There are real and meaningful differences among people. Some people, like Stracher, are foodies; some are not. Some people, like Pollack, think there?s a point, beyond the age of 19, to trying to look and act ?cool?; some do not. Some people love to read Proust; some can?t bear separation from their kids; some can stomach living off their spouses; some cannot. These differences won?t show up in brain scans or blood tests, but for me they?re more important than the sorts of accepted dualities through which we normally organize thoughts about our lives. (my emphasis)
Two big problems with this paragraph: 1) implication that SAHM/Ds are living off their spouses, and 2) idea that whether or not we are “foodies” is a bigger distinction than whether we are male or female (the “accepted dualities”).
As Cousin Suzie reminded us in a recent comment, Salary.com analyzed how much a stay-at-home parent would earn if our hours were billable: $134,121. So, in a perfect world, I would make twice what my husband does. But more importantly, marriage (at least my marriage; I wonder about JW’s) is a partnership. My wedding ceremony was different (both more simple and more profound) in wording than the traditional Christian one, but, in spirit, reflected the following:
Do you, __ take __ to be your (wife/husband)? Do you promise to love, honor, cherish and protect her/him, forsaking all others and holding only unto her/him?” (“I do”)
I __ , take thee __ , to be my (wife/husband) to have and to hold, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, and I promise my love to you..”
With this Ring I thee wed, with my Body I thee worship, and with all my worldly Goods I thee endow
These words inspire a feeling of mutuality and common purpose rather than a totting up of who did what and who earned what. I find it contradictory that Judith Warner expects “society” (“government”) to pull together to “help” mothers, when she apparently thinks that two people in a marriage are incapable of working for and with each other as a family.
One of my best friends, Tara, is a “foodie;” her husband is too. My husband and I like to eat good food, but we can’t spend more than 30 bucks at a restaurant without feeling like dorks, and we don’t miss the Food Network at all (well, I sometimes do; Dick never watched it).
Now, who do I have more in common with character-wise? Who shares my nurturing and caretaking feelings/aspirations more? Who can organize a linen closet or clean out a refrigerator like I can? Who soothes the crying baby and helps patiently with homework? Who is addicted to mommy blogs? Who feels, like I do, that mothering is the most important work I will ever do?
Well, luckily, we are both blessed with husbands who think our mothering is of supreme importance (and who are wonderful about sharing in the parenting). But you get my point. Men and women are different. I didn’t say “not equal” or “superior/inferior” or “men should stomp all over women.” I think they are different. To say otherwise is to support some strange agenda that I just don’t understand.
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I am speechless.
I really wish there were a study–maybe there is–that shows a relationship between how strong a marriage is and the woman staying home with the children.
There is plenty to do at home for a mother. Plenty, and not that we’re keeping track, but I sure am the last person loading the dishwasher at night, if you know what I mean.
I didn’t really say that very well. I mean, I believe marriages would be stronger when the wife stays home and does the home duties during the day and hubby does the breadwinning…..
ok, big-confession-time for Shannon. I feel invalidated and misrepresentative (hence the confession) and mad!
Tom and I were arguing today over something else (poor Tom is coming down with a cold and not-so-poor Tom stayed up way too late last night) and he said,
“At least you got to sleep in this morning.” true, but…
“Oh, did you wake up early to nurse Lucy for the past 7 months? and at first you also woke up in the middle of the night to feed her?” true, but…
“Well, at least you didn’t have to work at 7:30 every morning of those 7 months”
jaw dropping….snorts of disbelief…steam coming out my ears…
“I.DIDN’T.HAVE.TO.WORK for those 7 months?”
(tom trying to backpedal for all he’s worth):
“oh sorry, i forgot. can we not talk about this again–i just forgot…i meant that that [getting up in the night] is part of your work”
Shannon laughing/crying at this point:
“Hey Tom, let’s do something fun as a family on Monday — oh wait, I forgot — YOU have to work.”
Anyway, i think my basic premise is true — that a loving marriage in which both partners value the work that each does is possible and is the solution to the home/work mommy wars. but i apologize for misleading anyone into thinking that my marriage is one of those.
BUT WE ARE WORKING ON IT !!
(at least this does prove my point that men (monsters who forget the sun is yellow) and women (hardworking slaves) are different!!!)
Poor Tom. He just said something stupid. He doesn’t really mean it, Shannon. Let him make it up to you with a good massage or something.
Adam sometimes says the kids aren’t hard to take care of. Then when he watches them they end up watching lots of tv and the laundry, dishes, etc. pile up.
Remember GOOFY MINDS THE HOUSE.
I’m just glad that our church teaches men that’s it’s their job to be the breadwinner and that the goal is for the mom to stay at home. Most of our husbands don’t even have any expectation for us to find a daycare and find a job.
In most people’s minds in the LDS church, stay at home mom position is what we strive for, and any man who can provide that situation for their wife, I think is proud of themselves.
Most women that I know who are not members of the church, don’t have it that easy. Either their husband expects them to work and find a daycare, or they are “allowed” to stay home only until the youngest child goes to school. I have 3 friends in that situation right now, and 2 of them wish they could have another baby so that they would have an excuse to keep staying at home.
I feel that I never need an excuse to stay at home. I’m not expected to go to work when my kids are in school or ever. Of course I could if I wanted, but the lazy tendencies that I have, won’t promp me to be anywhere at 7:30 in the morning.
So just be grateful that you are not expected to be earning a wage and that your hubands go out of their way to provide.
Of course that’s probably not fair of me to say, because in spite of my husband providing, he still always got up with the babies while I slept. He still does. And I usually don’t clean the house very well, and he comes home and cleans up, and if I don’t happen to cook, he cooks dinner as well. Always without complaint and while telling me that he loves me and that I’m the best wife in the world. (Good thing I’m the only wife he’s ever had.)
So it’s not really fair for me to tell all of you ladies to be grateful for working husbands and for staying at home, because I have it unrealistically easy.
sylwia
My husband never cooks meals, hardly ever does dishes or laundry, but he does countless other things to help me out. We’re both glad to have each other in a partnership kind of way, in addition to all the love and companionship we share.
The more I think about it, that really is the stupidest thing anyone could say about a husband and wife. A SAH wife couldn’t be said to be “living off her spouse” unless her husband, in addition to bringing home money from a job, also hired a fulltime nanny, cook, maid, organizer, shopper, nurturer, scheduler, teacher, cheerleader, etc. (well, all those things in that article about the salary SAHMs would make if given a salary). Then, as the wife lounged on the couch all day, she could be said to be living off her spouse.
This is an interesting discussion and I have lot’s of thoughts but I will just say one thing. When I was in the hospital with Isaac Mike stayed in my room until 9:00 at night (way past Will’s bedtime). He took Will home and fed him and put him to bed and at 9:30 I got a call from Mike saying that he missed me. I just laughed and Mike said, “I got home and looked around the house and thought to myself, ‘Who is going to get Will to bed, feed him, wash the dishes, do the laundry, etc.’ and then I realized that I have to do those things now. Don’t go away again.” I thought it was pretty funny and I think he took for granted all the things I do. It was also funny because I have all the confidence in the world in Mike’s abilities to take care of himself and our kids. I am the one that mainly does the dishes, cleans the house, cooks the meals (Mike used to be a better cook than me), washes the kids, etc. but Mike has done all of the above and does them better than me sometimes. Mike is also very good about not saying anything to me when I haven’t done the above things. On the flip side, I have mowed, gotten the oil changed in the car, taken the responsibility of getting the internet fixed when it’s not working, etc. Anyway, the point is, Mike does his work, I do mine. We have our own responsibilites but are also willing to support each other. Judith Warner is just silly if she thinks we live off of our husbands.
one interesting note: JW was writing a column about “dad lit” in which stay-at-home fathers talk about their experiences staying home. one of her points was that she felt so much in common with their parenting experiences (hence the argument against “accepted dualities). (except she hasn’t spent much time being a SAHM). but in her column she was certainly talking about moms OR dads who are the sah parent.
anyone ever heard the Offspring song “why don’t you get a job”? for some reason i’ve been hearing it on the radio a lot lately. it has a couple bad words, so i usually change the station, but the other night i went to pick up tom from the airport (grampa babysat; it was 10 pm) and i listened to the whole thing. it is so funny!! at first it’s all about his poor friend who has this girlfriend who totally mooches off him, and then the last part is about the reverse (a girl whose boyfriend mooches).
anyway, if i thought tom were serious about thinking i don’t work, i would hire all those people (nanny, housekeeper, etc) and see how he liked paying them. but, really, i’ll give him the benefit of thinking his goof was a slip of the tongue.
you know one thing that really irritates me is the advice that when you ask your husband to do something (like cook or fold laundry or care for the children), you can’t criticize how he does it because that’s just not fair, and also it won’t encourage him to continue trying. this bugs me bec. i’m sure the advice is correct, but SOME husbands just do everything wrong, and honestly, it takes me almost as long to just do some things myself. like with the laundry, SOME people pile up the clean laundry in such a haphazard way that it gets mixed up with the dirty stuff, and so when someone (me) gets dressed for church, the black skirt hanging in my closet is actually dirty, and i have to find something else to wear, and we’re 15 minutes late. (ok, there prob. was some other contributing factor to our lateness).
Adrianne–i think you’re extremely lucky to have such a competent husband. i am lucky to have a usually willing husband.
Sylwia–all i can say is that it’s a shame there is only one joshua. you obviously won the sweepstakes with that one!
We do both work, but we have to recognize the differences. I don’t have to get dressed or brush my teeth or make myself presentable by a certain time or suffer consequences. I don’t have to clock in or out. If I don’t feel like making the bed until 4:00 PM, or at all, the only person that cares is me.
I don’t really agree with that Salary.com thing. They lumped together all of those salaries, like a chef, a nanny, a housekeeper. These are all people that work for others, doing that one particular job for 8 hours. Whereas the chef cooks for hundreds, I cook for 4. Whereas the nanny is expected to teach the kids flawless Mandarin Chinese, I do the best I can with language materials. Whereas the housekeeper spends 8 hours breaking her back getting every speck off the bathtub enamel, I can call it good enough and move on from there. Those are workers that work FOR someone else, who has expectations that have to be fulfilled. The only person I work for is me, and I set the standards.
I think I work hard, but I have to recognize the difference between doing what I do and doing what Brad does. One is not harder, but the differences have to be recognized.
Something funny for you. When Brad proposed marriage, I told him that I could only marry him if he agreed to the importance of me being a SAHM and of homeschooling, both things I have wanted to do my entire life. But this is how Brad tells it. “When my wife and I decided to get married, I sat down with her and said ‘look here, Toots. I love you, but I can’t marry you unless you’re willing to go th barefoot-and-pregnant route. No wife of mine will be in the work force when there are kids to be cared for, and no child of mine is going to public school. If you don’t agree, we’re calling it quits, that’s how important it is to me.’” LOL! What a revisionist!
Marie,
Hi this is Marcy (Shannon’s sister). You forgot the flip side: it is usually the wife who gets up with the kids who have ear infections in the middle of the night, plus nightly feedings, plus running to the kids any time they really need us, plus running to them most of the times they just want us, feeding grumpy children, catering to their naptimes, etc. We have time constraints too, just not ones that are as convenient or can be planned for as much as our husbands’ jobs. Don’t you think?
Yes, I agree, there are certain things we can’t choose the timing of. Our time is more flexible in general, and we are more at ease to take our time doing certain things. But I don’t think we have less time for ourselves than our husbands do, at least I know that’s true with my relationship. I may get interrupted every thirty seconds while I’m trying to read, but I have more time to attempt to read. Brad has less of this flex time, and gets interrupted at least as often as I do, and usually by me.
I have to recognize that my husband is very helpful at home, he gets up at night as often as I do, and doesn’t complain. He asks very little for himself, but wants me to have everything I want. I got very lucky, I know not all husbands are this way.
To play the devil’s advocate, I don’t think we should be so defensive of our own status as SAHM’s. It’s just a different kind of job. We can’t call in sick, and we don’t get vacation. Instead of money, we are paid in memories and relationships. But we LOVE our jobs, don’t we? Do we show that enough? I think I personally complain too much . If I’m always going on about how difficult my job is, how can I recommend it to anyone else?
It makes me angry when people make comments that belittle what we do. So what is the best way to combat this attitude? I think it’s by setting an example, and showing how fulfilling this choice really can be. Not by being Super-Moms… I think what such people can’t fathom is that it IS possible to be a SAHM and be happy and fulfilled. Or maybe they suspect this is the case, and are resentful of it. I dunno, just running my mouth as usual.
I like your attitude: “setting an example, and showing how fulfilling this choice really can be.”
Every couple needs to find a good balance for themselves of helping each other out and getting everything done that needs to be done. If both husband and wife feel good about the division of responsibilities, then it’s great!
My husband’s mom runs a time-consuming dance program out of her home. She’s been technically “home” with her children all these years, but I had to make sure before I married my husband that he understood–like you did with your husband–that I wouldn’t be bringing any extra income to the family and wouldn’t be running a program like that that would take so much time away from our family. I’m just not interested in that kind of thing. Not to take away from the wonderful mother my MIL is, but I don’t ever want to be away from my kids that much.
hi guys–on the flex time, Tom’s solution (and mine often) is to stay up really, really late, and then pass out on the couch on sunday and saturday afternoons (tom does the passing out; i swear that boy is narcoleptic. i do often get a 1 hr nap on sundays), and guess who gets to take care of everything? me, that’s who. whine, whine.
but i will re-read those marriage vows i quoted in my initial post, and remind myself that i have this ideal of marriage as a beautiful partnership.
deep breath.
For the record, I just wanted to correct something that Sylwia implied in her comment above. I’ve never been a particularly good provider. Hopefully this medical school thing will pay off and I’ll start bringing home a decent paycheck. Otherwise I’m all out of ideas. In the meantime I try to make up for my moneymaking deficiencies by being an otherwise good husband.
Josh,
i don’t know if you were aware that when we were kids i thought that if i had to get married someday it would be to you–or Jared; i was flexible. too bad we’re cousins (and not over 54 and living in michigan, and that in the meantime you married Sylwia). obviously i knew a good thing when i saw it.
am pretty confident that the med school thing will work out. i hope we get to see you guys when you move to georgia!