Peter sure is interesting. He cuts off the guard’s ear, and yet, later, he denies knowing Christ 3 times. His faith wavers when he’s walking on the water, and yet he is the leader of the church when Christ leaves. Maybe an example of what we are all capable of if we can only remember, and act on, our faith?

I’ve been thinking of Mother Teresa recently in conjunction with motherhood generally. I was trying to formulate kind of a mission statement about motherhood, and I was thinking how it would have to include caveats for women who are not “mothers” of their own children, and women who do not believe it is their greatest work in life to be a “mother.” I thought of Mother Teresa, and other nuns. We don’t do celibacy in the Mormon church; I mean we don’t consider it better/harder/more-like-God to be celibate than to be married with children (rather the opposite–that we have to, at some point, be married with children to even think of becoming like God, and you know that we’re heretical enough to take that as our goal). So, interesting, to me, a Saint like Mother Teresa who obviously did so much more good than I can even imagine.

Any thoughts?

Melinda,

I guess I’m bugged by the imprecision of language, and therefore the impossibility, sometimes, of knowing what a writer (particularly a dead writer translated from reformed egyptian) really meant or of taking him to task for speaking imprecisely. (On the other hand, I love the nuances in language, which probably rely on imprecision)

chastity (from dictionary.com):
1. The condition or quality of being pure or chaste.
2.
1. Virginity.
2. Virtuous character.
3. Celibacy.

I am bugged that virginity:virtuous:chastity:celibacy. I think this stems from something I say to my fil (“Grampa”) above in this comment. In LDS theology, we don’t do the nun/monk thing. Rather radically, we believe that family (married) life is the ideal, and the eternal. In Catholic theology (correct me if I’m wrong), virginity and celibacy are the highest of ideals.

Anyway, it’s not life or death (though the pen is mightier than the sword, eh?), but it’s just something that, despite all of the entirely apt comments to my post, still bugs me. Why do we never hear of a man’s virtue being taken from him? Biologically much more complicated, but I did see a law&order once (where a villainess was steeling high-octane sp*rm by foul means) that leads me to think it’s possible. Yet, it sounds ludicrous to even say it. I assume men do have virtue (to take)?

Brock (Melinda’s Husband)

(I don’t know what it is about this blog that most men who comment feel it necessary to relate themselves to a woman before commenting, but hey, that’s kind of cool. Like the opposite of when my arch-nemesis at church calls me “Tom’s wife”).

Excellent point from Elder Oaks. I think maybe I was a lawyer in a former life, so I appreciate his logical style. Couldn?t agree more with how you interpret his words.

Perhaps some of the difference might be that it is your job (genetically) to protect your children from abuse, but not your job to ferret out sins I may commit that don’t affect you.

I grant what you say about judging people. The passage in Matthew does say that we will be judged by the same standard we judge others; the harsher we judge, the harsher we will be judged and vice versa. It goes on to say, Why behold the mote in another’s eye and ignore the beam in one’s own eye. Mother Teresa was once asked what one should think of a notorious serial killer. She said, Just thank God you’re not that person. I suppose she suggests that the more we can identify with others (all sinners, by the way), the more good we will be able to do. This is an excellent example for somebody like me whose natural reflex would be to get out my pistol to protect the ones I love, or even to wreak vengeance on anyone that hurt me or mine. I guess that makes me like Peter who cut off the guard’s ear during Jesus’ arrest. The others just split. Who among the disciples should be our example for this situation? Later, at Golgotha, there were Mary, Mary Magdalen, and John, who at least were there.

I knew I’d get you on here if we just had the right conversation.

Indelibility is a Catholic concept, right? i’ve never heard it in conjunction with mormon theology. so i just looked around on the internet for a few seconds to get some idea of what it encompasses (please correct me if i’m wrong). there was something about the indelibility of grace. does this mean that grace is a free gift to all, and cannot be revoked?

on the indelibility of sin, i don’t know. we do have a hierarchy of sins, with the top three being, 1) the unpardonable sin, denying the witness of the Holy Ghost, 2) murder, 3) adult*ry. interesting that only one of those is considered unpardonable. but as to judging…

my reading of the KJV, with mormon footnotes, is that He says, Judge not unrighteously, for with that judgement that ye judge ye shall be judged. we have to make judgements every day. if you mol*st one child, yes, as far as my children are concerned, you are a mol*ster forever. there was a fascinating article in the nytimes recently about a church that had to confront this issue. i would say in that instance, yes, come to church, and no, you will never be alone with my children.

but explain to me about indelibility.

If I blaspheme, am I forever a blasphemer?

If I misspell a word, am I a bad speller? 20 words in 20 years?

If I steal a pencil, am I a thief forever?

If I kill one person, does that make me a murderer forever?

If I mol*st one child, am I a mol*ster forever?

If I am mol*sted, does that make me a victim forever?

“Judge not,” He says. Pretty hard. Love the sinner. Harder yet. But then, no one said that virtue was always easy.

When does the indelibilty apply?

note: Shannon has added cute asterisks to this comment to deter weird googlers.

it probably is just a problem of semantics, but then, so is the f word and a whole lot of other things. Avery has started casually repeating my language (took her long enough; for almost 6 years she exercised not-helpful-to-my-growth discretion); this has finally convinced me that i really should watch my language. our use of language is powerful.

even though i agree with all of your interpretations of the scripture, it still bugs me. we gave up our virginity when we married; did we give up our virtue also? what about our chastity?

?noun 1. moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.
2. conformity of one’s life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.
3. chastity; virginity: to lose one’s virtue.
4. a particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, theological virtue.
5. a good or admirable quality or property: the virtue of knowing one’s weaknesses.
6. effective force; power or potency: a charm with the virtue of removing warts.
7. virtues, an order of angels. Compare angel (def. 1).
8. manly excellence; valor.

In Moroni 9 I think the word virtue is being used as a synonym for chastity – meaning no s*x*al relations except for with the person you are married to. I don’t think that the scripture implies that evil can take away someone else’s “moral excellence, goodness, or righteousness.”

Sylwia, you are absolutely right that evil can psychologically, spiritually, and emotionally, as well as physically, damage a person, and impede their progression. and i think that you’re right that this is why those sins are so heinous and so severely punishable.

but, i maintain, evil cannot destroy virtue. virtue is not, or should not be, equal to virginity or innocence. virtue is something more valuable, precisely because it, like our will/agency, is something only we can surrender.

Is that what you mean, Shannon?

But you already know all of these things. I think the reason why murder and the taking away someone’s virtue are such serious things is because it changes for the rest of their life and not in positive ways. The family of a murdered person will suffer for generations. The same may be true of a s*xu*lly abused person. The healing may not come in this lifetime. Even when we have the gospel, it is often difficult for us to have enough faith to completly draw on the atonement to have complete healing in this life. Though I believe it is possible to be healed completly through faith, but it is rare.

sylwia

I think there is a definition problem with the word virtue. When someone takes the virtue away from a child, i don’t think it makes the child evil or makes him/her a sinner, but it does damage them severly. Perhaps even for the rest of their life. It is such a serious emotional/physical scar that often thier struggle continues until the grave. That is why this is it a such serious sin to take someone’s virtue away and it has serious consequences. It would be better than a millstone were tied around that person’s neck and he were drowned in the dephts of the sea.

Maybe the problem you are having with the scripture is because you think that some of the fault is blamed on the victim. It not fault, but painful consequences that the victim has to suffer. That’s why it is our job to protect our children from such experiences. That is what the scripture is teaching to me.

sylwia

i appreciate your comments, but you’ve misunderstood me on the virtue thing. I am not arguing in any way that what the women in wartime often suffer (the accounts coming out of Darfur are horrifying enough today) is not worse than a quick death. what i find upsetting is the idea that “virtue,” a spiritual quality, can be taken or destroyed by evil. similarly intriguing concepts, to me, are “innocence” and “knowledge.” Innocence is used in both physical and spiritual senses in the scriptures and in the world. I think that innocence (both physical and spiritual) can be taken/destroyed. but this is not problematic, to me, because innocence is not praised as “the most dear and precious thing.” it can’t be because, for example, Adam and Eve had to move past innocence to knowledge in order to fulfill the multiply and replenish commandment. So my overall point is that evil cannot destory virtue. if it could–what is the point of anything?

now, about the house. of course, you’re right, we should move. our house has been on the market for 6 months as of 2 days ago. we made a bad decision two years ago, when housing was booming, to buy. we examined our finances carefully and prayed and thought we were making a good decision. we’ve lived in worse neighborhoods before and we were confident that with the market going up our neighborhood would continue to improve and that the tax benefits, etc of owning would be worth it.

even now, our mortgage payment is quite a bit less (300-700?) than what we would pay for a 2 bdrm apt in the nicest part of town. and i don’t think i could survive in a 2 bdrm with 3 kids anyway. we have 1200 sq ft here, and that’s crowded. 9 out of 10 nights our neighborhood is as quite as my parents, but 10% is pretty high for disturbances, huh?

by the way I woudn’t worry about your kids pictures. the evil people have other means of making nasty images. i dobut they use family blogs. i have a good freind who is an immigration officer and has to deal with the smuggling of child p*r**g**p*y.

and if you live in such a bad neighborhood, why don’t you move. I don’t mean quit job, but just go to a nice part of town. i’d rather live in an apartment in the nicest part of town than in a fancy house in the slums. I live in a small 2 bedroom apt with 4 kids in the nicest part of town and I love it. I wouldn’t trade it for a house. I love the schools and the safety. Just a thought.

sylwia

it’s interesting that you bring all of this up. moroni 9 is one of my favorite passages of scripture because it deals with things that go on a large scale both in the united states and in the rest of the world. and the things that i’m referring to are much worse than death. I thought of writing about this when you brought up fears, but I thought that it might be too serious of a subject. I read an article a couple of years ago that changed how I look at this world and the things that I fear. what I fear most is the kidnapping of my children. I have this article that I’m referring to but I can only email it to you. i can not post it here because it would be up to you to post something as horrible as this. if you are interested in knowing why loosing virture is worse than death, I will email it to you.

sylwia